file this under "I'm not bitter"

baba

Tue, Jan 04 2011, 6:45 am

I'm so sorry for your loss and the continuing pain others are inflicting on you.

I've noticed a lot of people get very uncomfortable around others who are going through a tragedy. They simply do not know how to talk to these people. Sometimes they might ignore the issue or even the people themselves. Other times they make stupid comments. I'm not making excuses for them, but I've seen it a lot with myself and a close friend of mine going through something terrible.

I'm so sorry you're also dealing with these types of people.
May you be surrounded by those that give you comfort and help you through this terrible time.

levial

Tue, Jan 04 2011, 8:15 am

Thanks everyone for weighing in. Fox actually sent me a pm early on in my grief that I read almost daily. She's right on the mark.

I think my main issue is that 7 months later, you start to feel "normal" and that you can handle things and that just when the 2 steps back happen. We had just come out of a period of time helped by the snow, where we didn't eat out. Atali, it is exactly as you said, we had not been "shabbos social" and only invited close friends or "safe" people. We had started to go out again by people we knew well enough, and it was just the luck of the draw. I felt I had said no too many times, and she'd get the wrong idea.

Thank you all for giving me what therapy, group support does not. I started to feel like I had to cordon myself off.

levial

Tue, Jan 04 2011, 8:29 am

Kayza wrote:

levial wrote:

Deep breath. It meant a lot to write this out. Thanks.

I'm sure it did!

Have you thought of polishing it just a touch (doesn't need much, actually) and submitting it to some of the frum magazines? I think it's something lots of people need to hear - not just about losing a child to SIDS, but any tragedy that turns someone's life up-side-down.

You might also enjoy "Is there anything I can do to help". She lost her husband, but some of the things you write could have come out of her book.

That's very kind of you- my hesitation (and I think of writing lots of helpful books sometimes) is that I have to ask why would I? What would I accomplish? And Kayla, haven't you notice I write too much? I'd miss the word count by a mile!

First, I'm not sure people are open to the feedback. I have lots of practical experience. A picklist of ideas of things to say when you don't know what to say. Things to offer to do instead of saying "if there's anything I can do." (much like the book you mentioned) . Some of the other women wrote here about the other side - that life goes on, that no one is atuned to anyone else's grief - this is what we have to accept. But would I sensitize people for a moment, or change them? Not sure. What about the

Secondly, I am worried about my middot. There is part of me that might crave that kind of notoriety. I've sometimes read an online article or heard about someone. I'll generalize and example "She lost her family in the holocaust and she's a renowned lecturer." In a way, I'd love to have that- the ability to help and inspire. On the other hand, I have to reconcile it with my ego. Here I am saying I resent the well-to-do person who wouldn't say hello to me before but now wants to invite us over. It's supreme irony. I condemn her but someone else I am grateful for the attention, sensitivity, the window of opportunity to touch them?

I'm just worried I need to move on without making myself out to be some tzadika. Clearly you all can see my flaws! Smile

sneakermom

Tue, Jan 04 2011, 9:26 am

Levial wrote:

Quote:

I'm just worried I need to move on without making myself out to be some tzadika. Clearly you all can see my flaws! Smile Rolling Eyes

That's what makes beautiful writing. When you write it the way it is, flaws and all. It's real and people relate to the emes in that. None of us are perfect, and when you accept that and write that way, it's gorgeous because of the authenticity of the account.

As for your ego. I wouldn't worry about it. It's more imagination than anything else. You will be quite the same person you were before you write as after. It's a little ride you take, and once you get over the high of doing it, things actually settle down. And it can be very much a learning experience.

In any case you already have shared some of your story and impacted many. Wishing you all the best.

amother

Tue, Jan 04 2011, 9:44 am

I'm so sorry for your loss and suffering.

I'm sorry you perceived those women as being insensitive. Maybe they were, I don't know. But it's hard to know. Speaking only for myself, when I hear about anyone who is suffering a loss, I feel so deeply for them, but I may not know how to act. Is it better to walk on egg shells and be obvious about avoiding all talk of babies? Or is that more offensive and better to just be natural and talk about whatever comes up? Even when we are being sensitive and feeling and want to do the right thing and make someone in pain feel comfortable, we just don't always know how.

May Hashem bless you with abundant goodness.... and may sleepless nights be in your very near future.

ewa-jo

Tue, Jan 04 2011, 10:23 am

Levial - if you are in Jerusalem, you are invited for Shabbos by us. There will be no talk of babies at the table.. or the 'such-and-such happened to my neighbor/cousin/3rd grade teacher'. After our first was stillborn at 40 weeks, all people wanted to tell me were tragic stories about this person and that person that they knew. Ummm... no, it doesn't make me feel better about my situation to hear about others' misery.

I just wanted to live in normal-land again and talk about the new coffee house in the neighborhood, what fruits are in season at the shuk, new books, music, politics, how awful the service at your post office is...anything *BUT* the tragic thing that just happened to me.

chocolate moose

Tue, Jan 04 2011, 10:32 am

levial wrote:

chocolate moose wrote:

People behave poorly because they're so entrenched in their own lives. That doesn't make them bad or unfeeling. They aren't sensitive because they aren't keilim for it at that point in their lives.

If it's a problem for OP, she needs to deal with it. Either by taking more time for herself, therapy, not eating out, avoiding certain kinds of ppl, etc.

just to clarify, I didn't say anyone was bad or unfeeling. I just get tired of being told to go to therapy or avoid going out. In this case, after three invites, I cannot say "no" when I say yes to others. Especially with a neighbor two doors down who moved to the neighborhood 6 months ago.

Of course your response is reasonable, chocolate mousse, but do we always need to blame ourselves? Its like those shalom bait posts where we all scream "therapy now" and don't listen to the op. My therapist says that this happens, but not accepting invites and beng isolated is worse.

I defer to a trained therapist, then.

Fox

Tue, Jan 04 2011, 11:42 am

levial wrote:

There is part of me that might crave that kind of notoriety. I've sometimes read an online article or heard about someone. I'll generalize and example "She lost her family in the holocaust and she's a renowned lecturer." In a way, I'd love to have that- the ability to help and inspire. On the other hand, I have to reconcile it with my ego.

I completely understand what you're saying. I feel very uncomfortable with people who have a particular experience -- often a tragedy but not necessarily -- and then seem to build their identities around it. There is a very fine line between sharing one's experience for the benefit of others and seeming to actually profit (not just financially, but in other ways, too) from a personal blow.

There's also a big danger in keeping the focus on oneself too much. I have an acquaintance who had a very premature baby. Boruch Hashem, everything turned out fine, but she's turned herself into a veritable industry on the subject of premature birth. Sometimes it seems like she's almost promoting this difficult time in her life!

Give yourself time, and the right approach will come to you.

I remember so well the stage you're probably at right now. I would think I was doing great, and then someone would say something or even give me a pitying look in the grocery store, and the tears would start. I wouldn't even realize I was crying; I would start to feel the tears flow, and I'd high-tail it to a restroom until I could face the world again.

Yeah, people are idiots. But my guess is that you'd still have these moments even if they reduced their idiocy. After 14 years, I don't have them often, but every once in a while it still happens. My most recent performance was at a bar mitzvah reception: a woman came to talk to me about the loss of her grandchild, and we both ended up with tears streaming down our faces. Very classy, Fox! By all means, please sit at someone's simcha with tears all over your face!

But BTW, I don't think you're bitter -- just amazing!

LovingGrace

Tue, Jan 04 2011, 7:21 pm

Levial I am so sorry Im sending u huge hugs your way-
Sometimes I ask the same thing can ppl just keep their mouth shut- ppl would say to me all the time when my baby was in the hospital- oh my baby was in the hospital and he or she got out fine dont worry ur baby will be fine- and I would think really do u really know whats going on that u can confidently say that?
one woman even said to me mind u she herself is a social worker and said dont worry ur baby will get out of the iscu shell be fine but u know just focus on ur baby dont look at the other ones there bec u know some babies do die in the iscu.. oh by the way my baby was one of them three weeks later..
another one said u knwo our baby was also a preemie and we could still see the effects she has LD and is slower then her other sister- ARE YOU SERIOUS?!?!?! ppl say the darndest things!!!
my son would ask and cry when is his baby sister coming home.. never did...
my heart goes out to you - one of the best condolences cards I got was im so sorry for ur loss theres just no words.. im so sorry... And shes right bec there r no words so ppl should keep their mouth shut!
I work with a another girl who had a baby a couple of months ago -she doesnt realize but the reason why I dont work in the same room as her is bc all she does is talk about how cute and good her baby is ! how I wish I had one!!to show off about to leave work so I can pump to supply my baby- but I ahd to throw it all out 4 huge bags of waisted breast milk b/c I couldnt use it anymore- I tried to give it away but then they wanted blood work from me and I couldnt go through with that...
This post was for you yet I vented also..... im sorry - I wish I could take ur pain away..may HKBH bless u with nechama and strength ,happiness and just an abundance of bracha
please pm me if u feel like it we can go on rants for hrs if ud like Smile

Kayza

Tue, Jan 04 2011, 8:09 pm

levial wrote:

That's very kind of you- my hesitation (and I think of writing lots of helpful books sometimes) is that I have to ask why would I? What would I accomplish?
<SNIP>
But would I sensitize people for a moment, or change them? Not sure.

I think that you'll just roll off some people. Others, I think will be changed, and others will be sensitized for a few days - but if in those few days, it keeps them from foot-in-mouth disease once, you've accomplished something. I also think that when people hear this kind of thing many times, in many ways, it begins to sink in a little. Not everyone, but some people. And, that's worthwhile.

Quote:

I'm just worried I need to move on without making myself out to be some tzadika.

Publishing something won't necessarily give you notoriety. And, what you wrote earlier is so powerful precisely because you didn't make yourself out to be some big tzadekes. You come of as a very honest person who is dealing with a situation that no one can really make "better" - but which does not need to be made WORSE by what people say and do.

I hear what you are saying, but I think it's worth considering - perhaps discuss with your husband and therapist (it sounds like you have a good rapport with her.)