On the verge of a nervous breakdown over tuition

emaof3

Mon, Jul 11 2005, 4:18 pm

And to think I was going to complain of the schools tuition...when people are paying $10grand per kid...I will def. keep my mouth shut on that topic.
Of course I can be mad when I compare to the $4grand per kid instead of the over $6grand tuition that I have.
I guess it is all how you look at it.
To some I am paying way too much. TO others, I am paying so little.

What really gets to me is, after paying full tuition they hit you up for all the extras....like building funds, fundraising, chessed dollars (script) etc etc. In reality it comes out to be more than the fee of tuition...it is another 4grand on top of that...

The reason why the schools arent getting that much tzedakah is
We are not making as much as the previoius generation
there are more kollel families
we have more kids
we have our school fees to deal with
I know in my case, my school eats up a ton of our maaser money on top of tuition. I feel that if I pay the school all what they want...I have little money to "support" another organization. no fair! where is my hakaras hatov to my husband's yeshivos from the past??? why do I have to pay all my money to the schools now??

1stimer

Tue, Jul 19 2005, 2:23 pm

Quote:

I expected the Rabbi to understand that we're not millionaires and still have to send our son to a good Yeshivah and be able to pay our bills at the same time.

Hmm, maybe I should try this with our landlord; he should understand that we're not millionaires, but we need somewhere to live... Wink

Tuition is a service just like any other. It is the parent's responsibility to provide a Jewish education for the child; not the schools. And if we are going to delegate the responsibility then we have to pay them for it.

chavamom

Tue, Jul 19 2005, 4:42 pm

1stimer wrote:

If you have the extra $400, maybe it should go to the school. What difference does it make if it is $400 or $4000?

I can imagine people rationalising; well I HAVE to go on vacation, it's a necessity and it ONLY cost me an extra $xxx to take my family to Hawaii for the summer. And anyway I pay the school enough. (not realising what the school is doing for him and his family)

Actually, I *didn't* have $400 extra sitting around. I picked up an extra shift (paid at an overtime rate) at work to pay for it - as a nurse, it's not hard to do. By your logic, any money the school doesn't deem tuition should be handed over to the school? I have to tell you, I'm not particularly motivated to pick up overtime regularly to pay a higher tution rate. At an overtime rate, I was able to cover the ticket with one shift. Do I want to do that on a regular basis? Not on your life.

I think for most Americans there are things that they could do without - hey, who says you need to buy soda? Water works just fine. Are you using a dryer? You can hang your clothing out for free you know. Shabbos candy? You eat meat during the week? And I'm not even talking about movie rentals, eating out, etc that is the norm in some areas! Ask any of my Russian neighbors who know how to make 2 cents and save 1, they will tell you that Americans waste a tremendous amount of money. But honestly, do I want someone deciding that I need to be living on bare bones subsistance level in order to educate my kids? And how many kids would be lost in the meantime b/c their parents refuse to pay such a price (please see articles about the current controversy in Long Island)?

elisecohen

Tue, Jul 19 2005, 7:22 pm

Well, with the tuition we're paying, we're stuck trying to figure out how to fly across the country to get our baby seen by the world specialists in his life threatening medical condition...and frankly I don't see that as a luxury. This last weekend was the world medical conference on it, also across the country, so my mother and I drove there--10+ hours each way--with a 6 year old and a 6 month old baby (the 2 who have this disease)--so that we could hear the latest on research and meet other families dealing with it.

But as far as the school is concerned, this does not really figure in to how much they think we should pay. $22,000 for special ed tuition for my 8 year old, with no scholarships available because the sped program has no endowment, and tuition for the other three in the regular Jewish school is $33,000 but we hope to get some scholarship money. I know they need to pay the teachers, but we just DON't have that kind of money, and if we did we would be donating it to the medical researchers in the hopes of discovering a cure.

Don't even start about vacations. Any vacation time or funds we have goes to therapies and medical travel. I don't mean this to sound bitter, just a littledisappointed in the greater Jewish community and frustrated.

chavamom

Tue, Jul 19 2005, 8:25 pm

I think that Elise's post touches on something that everyone is talking around: the schools need the money, but many (most?) turn to the same people (the community) for funds over and over again. I already mentioned that there have been a number of articles about the lack of who don't currently have children in schools don't contribute. This includes alumni.

One school we had kids had a fundraiser that took a line of 'the parents are strapped, the frum community is asked to give time and again to every institution in town, we have to look to other ways to raise money'. Basically, he found a way to become the 'backer' of speakers that the non-frum/non-Jewish would go to (things like Dr. Phil) and was able to raise large amounts of money that way (I was told $40,000-$200,000 for the evening depending on who/what the production was). Sheilas were asked all along the way. Long story short, he doesn't work there any more and suddenly they have tuition raises, salary freezes, staff cut and no one is happy.

My personal take on things is that it is a 'shanda' that they had to turn to the non-Jewish community to support the school, but not sure what the answer is. Don't even get me started on Federation dollars. Millions for shtooyot (senior olymics, JCC, "maccabiah", not to mention the MILLIONS to run the Federation itself!), pennies for Jewish education.

Honestly, I don't know the answer to the question. The community has a problem. I have heard ideas tossed around about a 'takana' requiring a % of ma'aser that would be an education tax, but there seems to be little support behind the idea. I think it is unrealistic to expect families to be able to support the schools alone, esp. when you consider the size of frum families and the fact that not everyone (even with a lg. family) has a 6 figure income. 1/4 - 1/2 of someone's income is just not sustainable.

1stimer

Wed, Jul 20 2005, 7:14 am

chavamom wrote:

That is my point, if something is important enough to a person, they will fidn the money. It's a matter of priority.

Quote:

I think for most Americans there are things that they could do without - hey, who says you need to buy soda? Water works just fine. Are you using a dryer? You can hang your clothing out for free you know. Shabbos candy? You eat meat during the week? And I'm not even talking about movie rentals, eating out, etc that is the norm in some areas! Ask any of my Russian neighbors who know how to make 2 cents and save 1, they will tell you that Americans waste a tremendous amount of money.

I'll have to agree that Americans waste a tremendous amount and live on a very high, materialistic level. All good and well, but don't expect other people to pay for it. Because that is what you are doing when you ask for someone else to foot your education bill (which you are doing when you ask for a scholarship) so that you can have soda, use a dryer etc.

Quote:

But honestly, do I want someone deciding that I need to be living on bare bones subsistance level in order to educate my kids?

Well if you are asking for a scholarship then yes you have to expect people to tell you whether you are eligible for it or not.

lucky

Wed, Jul 20 2005, 8:45 am

with rent/food u have the option of living at a certain standard. With tuition u are put at the same level as others who r earning more. Also, with tuition you don't get the option of buying cheaper cause u cant afford. We usually dont have very many choices regarding our kids education.

Also, When u don't like the price/service of anything else u can switch. with chinuch u want your kids in a yeshive that is your chasidus. They have u cornered since they know that u r not going to send somewhere else. Also, ever tried dealing with s/o when u have a problem in school? U get sent from one person to the next. So is school a business or a community thing?

chavamom

Wed, Jul 20 2005, 4:55 pm

1stimer wrote:

That is my point, if something is important enough to a person, they will fidn the money. It's a matter of priority.

Hm - let me see. Work one overtime shift, ONCE to pay for a ticket vs. working overtime regularly and letting the babysitter raise my kids, be a shmatta, etc. NOPE. Not happening. And I don't think it should be required.

I think, esp. from an Israeli point of view where even 'private chadarim' cost $100/month it is hard to relate to what we are talking about. If I were to pay full tuition for the 6 children I have in day school (at a rate of $8,000 - $10,000 per child/year - this years quoted tuition rate) it would take nearly the entirity of my husband's salary. Before we have even paid a bill, eaten, paid for a mortgage or rent. I think it is quite clear that Americans are not 'all rich', just tuition is outrageous. I don't begrudge the school needing the money, I'm just acknowledging that you can't squeeze blood from a turnip.

Your rent comparison really doesn't hold water. And as someone mentioned, you don't have a choice of 'oh, I can send my child to school 'x' where it is more affordable'. Tuition is pretty comisurate within a community, not to mention that many places only have a few choices to start out with! I can choose to live in a smaller/cheaper house (which, incidentally most of us wind up doing since we can't afford much else), do without certain things, but no, tuition is what is set by the school. Scholarship is the only thing that can distribute things (hopefully!) equitably. My friend is married to a neurologist. She pays full tuition for her 6 children and lives in a nice, very large house. But to compare her situation to mine and say 'well, you could find the money if you wanted to' is just nuts. I obviously don't live in a house near the size, drive the same kind of car, etc. If you are going to charge prices that only the rich can afford while acknowledging that NOT sending to day school is not really an option, scholarship/assistance is the only way to make this a reality.

Just an interesting side point. Where I live, Cathoic schools (really, the only thing comparable to day schools where a lg. family could be the norm) cost around $3,000 - $5,000 for the first child and NOTHING for any child thereafter. Of course, the Catholic church has money, but I just think it is interesting to compare what can be done with community institutional support. If it were a similar sitation in the day schools, I think you could say 'well, most people could find the money if they really wanted to'. But we are talking about a situation where the prices are similar to the 'private schools' that the upper-middle-class send their 2.2 children to and expecting the frum community with their average of 5 children and often (much) lower income to keep up.

chavamom

Wed, Jul 20 2005, 11:11 pm

1stimer wrote:

Sorry I missed this one.

Actually, in the laws of tzedaka you are supposed to support someone *to the level of living they are used to*. There are sheilas and teshuvas of gedolim already from Europe where people were complaining about giving tzedaka to someone that was used to having a maid. The question was, should they give them tzedaka for a maid? The answer was YES b/c you are supposed to support someone *even from tzedaka* to a level they are accostomed to. Sorry, but a 'normal' American lifestyle includes a dryer and soda just as a 'normal' South African lifestyle (for most) means having a maid, etc. I don't think it would be halachically permissable to require people to live give up things that are considered 'normal' in order to pay the previously mentioned outrageous (for most of us!) tuition. Not to mention, you can't judge what is 'normal' for an American by Israeli standards.

Tefila

Thu, Jul 21 2005, 12:23 pm

Mommy2 but it's sending the wrong message to our girls and parents and sponsors what they should be supporting and whats not worth it. That money could've been raised for something that benifited the school so yes imo it's a real shanda that they actually r allowed to raise this amount and more for their book which doesn't even incl the rest of the grades Rolling Eyes

otherwise yes one can say it's a p r book.
Maybe a small amount they could be told to raise and anything above goes to tzedakah. But all that money and more solely 4 this shock

Motek

Thu, Jul 21 2005, 2:24 pm

chavamom wrote:

If you are going to charge prices that only the rich can afford while acknowledging that NOT sending to day school is not really an option, scholarship/assistance is the only way to make this a reality.

Seems to me unfair that other than the handful of people who can afford full tuition, everybody else is reduced to a charity case.

Parenthetically, I read an article in a Jewish magazine about the tsunami and one point the author made was expressing dismay over the Torah world not contributing $ towards disaster relief. And I thought - excuse me! Maybe if frum people didn't have to pay thousands and thousands of dollars for their kids' chinuch (aside from paying plenty to live in frum areas and pay for kosher food), we could consider contributing our money towards disaster relief. But we are a few frum Jews compared to the billions of people in the world, and don't blame US for not helping!