Sleeping in a succa

shalhevet

Sat, Sep 09 2006, 6:40 pm

OK, I have spent part of my Shabbos checking out lots of sources and every single one says that sleeping in the sukka is a Torah mitzvo. In Sefer Hachinuch it says that someone who doesn't sleep in the sukka is given lashes by the Beis Din for being mevatel a mitzvas asei.

So - who is going to explain to me how a minhag can possibly negate a Torah mitzva? I have brought down sources from the Shulchan Aruch and Rambam and you have brought me Chassidic stories in reply.

I also checked in Marve LeTzame which is a Chassidic (Sanz) magazine we get. Before every YomTov they have a section on halachos and always bring down all the minhagim of various chasidus, so I looked it up in a back issue and - guess what? No mention of such a minhag. Either they don't know about it (unlikely), are embarrased by it or hold that it is assur to not keep a Torah mitzva.

Motek wrote:

Quote:

R' Chaim Vital recorded that when R' Yosef Karo wanted to learn from the Arizal, the Arizal said it's not for you! When the Alshich wanted to learn from the Arizal, he fell asleep every time!

They were tremendously great men, R' Yosef Karo had a magid etc. BUT they could not learn what the Arizal was teaching.

R' C.V writes that the Arizal only wanted to teach him and he begged the Arizal to teach the others too.

So how do we understand this?
The issue wasn't one about information, whether they could understand it or not. It was a divine revelation. Each progressive revelation of pnimiyus ha'Torah brings down revelations that were not accessible before.

What are you trying to say? That Gedolei Olam like the Tanaim, Amoraim and Rishonim didn't know kabbala. Now that is totally ridiculous. The Ramban wrote much of his commentary al derech hasod.
And if you want to say that later generations know more kabbala, then why didn't other great mekubolim like the Ben Ish Chai or Rabbi Yehuda Petaya or Rav Kaduri zy"a say not to sleep in the sukka?????

Motek quoted:

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the very act of undressing and dressing, etc. inevitably creates a common-place attitude towards the place which serves as a bedroom. Such a depreciation of attitude toward the Succah

People do not dress and undress in the sukka. They get undressed in their bedroom and go into the sukka to sleep.

SY - I am not impressed by your guests - sorry. If they didn't have a pressing reason (maybe they did, I have no idea) then why did they choose to be mevatel the two mitzvas which we are able to do with our entire bodies - Yishuv EY and Sukka? There is a ma'ale to being in the sukka as much as possible over sukkos, even if a person isn't eating/drinking/sleeping there.

I am trying to be melamed z'chus on this whole parasha that the Rebbes involved were living in places where anyway people weren't able to sleep in the sukka. Maybe they were trying to be melamed z'chus or give them chizuk that they weren't zoche to this important mitzva. And anyway in those places it was all theoretical. I certainly can't believe they were telling people to have a minhag which is in direct opposition to halacha.

Ozmom

Sat, Sep 09 2006, 8:41 pm

A story is told of a person that asked the Rebbe a question in a chutzpadik manner and the Rebbe refused to answer. The chassidim after asked the Rebbe why he didn't answer and put the person in his place when there was a clear cut answer.
The Rebbe refused to answer because certain people don't ask questons in order to get answers, but rather to challenge and annoy.
that said, there are others reading this thread...

Mummyof6
the sources have been brought down, Perhaps you didn't know where to look or how to learn it.
The crutz of the answer is as brought down in shulchan oruch that if you have tzar then you are not obligated

the tannaim and amaroim clearly were aware of something as they did not sleep (As mentioned above)

Quote:

And if you want to say that later generations know more kabbala, then why didn't other great mekubolim like the Ben Ish Chai or Rabbi Yehuda Petaya or Rav Kaduri zy"a say not to sleep in the sukka?????

and what about Moshe Rabbeinu, how come hashem had to tell him to take off his shoes, what??? you mean to say a tzaddik like moshe rabbeinu didn't know that the mountain was such a holy place that he had to be TOLD to take of his shoes?

I'm not going to go into the whole pilpul here but let me ask you, over shabbos did you by any chance pick up a sicha on the topic and have a look. If not, then try looking in lekutai sichos chelek 29, Chag haSuccos page 211.
you don't have one? try and get hold of one..
If you can't get hold of one, (I mean, lets say you live in a place there are no libraries of judaica stores, and no lubavitcher chassidim to assist you) then pm me and I'll scan it in for you and send it to you
I presume by all your questioning here that you will do so, since you really want to know the answer, correct?
and if you don't want to look in the sicha then I don't see the point in continuing this discussion.

Quote:

I am trying to be melamed z'chus on this whole parasha that the Rebbes involved were living in places where anyway people weren't able to sleep in the sukka.

WHO DO YOU THINK YOU ARE????
the Heiliger Rabbeim certainly don't need your limud zchus, you want to ask a question? you don't understand? then ask! but don't presume to know more then Tzaddikim and to understand the way of previous Rabbeim better then the later ones did.

I will reiterate what I said earlier in this post. If you truly want to know the answer, then a forum is not the place to get conclusive answers.
If you really want to understand the ways of Chassidim then find a person to sit with you and teach you. If you can't or are not interested then I for one have nothing more to say.

Last edited by Ozmom on Sat, Sep 09 2006, 8:48 pm; edited 1 time in total

Ozmom

Sat, Sep 09 2006, 8:46 pm

and on the topic of sensitivity to the holiness of the succah a short story to illustrate the opposite extreme:
my inlaws once hosted a chazzan from out of town in their succah over succos. They knew he would be sleeping in the succah but still when my father in law came down in the morning to the succah he was greatly shocked and distressed at the sight he saw.
The guest was sprawled out on the TABLE (a mizbeiach) on his BACK facing the schach!!
A real 'Gnai'

the table I can't excuse but perhaps he innocently rolled on his back in his sleep? quite possible, yet another explanation, which has been given, for the why chassidim can't bring themselves to sleep in the succah.

shalhevet

Sat, Sep 09 2006, 9:11 pm

Ozmom wrote:

I didn't tell you to answer me.

Quote:

Mummyof6
the sources have been brought down, Perhaps you didn't know where to look or how to learn it.
The crutz of the answer is as brought down in shulchan oruch that if you have tzar then you are not obligated

The Shulchan Aruch explains what things are considered tza'ar.

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the tannaim and amaroim clearly were aware of something as they did not sleep (As mentioned above)

Who says they didn't sleep in the sukka? (ch"v) During the night they were at the Simchas beis Hashoeva.

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Sorry, I didn't get the connection.

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I'm not going to go into the whole pilpul here but let me ask you, over shabbos did you by any chance pick up a sicha on the topic and have a look. If not, then try looking in lekutai sichos chelek 29, Chag haSuccos page 211.
you don't have one? try and get hold of one..
If you can't get hold of one, (I mean, lets say you live in a place there are no libraries of judaica stores, and no lubavitcher chassidim to assist you) then pm me and I'll scan it in for you and send it to you
I presume by all your questioning here that you will do so, since you really want to know the answer, correct?
and if you don't want to look in the sicha then I don't see the point in continuing this discussion.

No thank you. A Jew has all his answers in halacha by looking in the Shulchan Aruch. I didn't say I don't know the answer. I was discussing the point here, asking other people if they have halachic sources for their opinion. If I have a shaila I ask a rav, not a forum.

Quote:

I am trying to be melamed z'chus on this whole parasha that the Rebbes involved were living in places where anyway people weren't able to sleep in the sukka.

I didn't say anything about any Rebbe. I am just trying to understand how a small % of Jews who want to keep halacha have come to have a "minhag" which is against the halacha. I haven't said anything against anyone and have tried to keep the discussion on the intelectual topic, without any bashing. (As have mali and Motek if that interests you)

Ozmom

Sat, Sep 09 2006, 9:34 pm

Quote:

Ozmom wrote:
A story is told of a person that asked the Rebbe a question in a chutzpadik manner and the Rebbe refused to answer. The chassidim after asked the Rebbe why he didn't answer and put the person in his place when there was a clear cut answer.
The Rebbe refused to answer because certain people don't ask questons in order to get answers, but rather to challenge and annoy.
that said, there are others reading this thread...

I didn't tell you to answer me.

ehhh read my last sentence, I'm not answering for your sake but for others

Quote:

Quote:
And if you want to say that later generations know more kabbala, then why didn't other great mekubolim like the Ben Ish Chai or Rabbi Yehuda Petaya or Rav Kaduri zy"a say not to sleep in the sukka?????

and what about Moshe Rabbeinu, how come hashem had to tell him to take off his shoes, what??? you mean to say a tzaddik like moshe rabbeinu didn't know that the mountain was such a holy place that he had to be TOLD to take of his shoes?

Sorry, I didn't get the connection.

you asked perviously how is it that previous tzaddikim were not aware of this makif, you take issue with the fact that some things do become apparent in latter generations rather then in previous ones. I'm simply pointing out that this is nothing new. Moshe also wasn't aware previously that he wasn't supposed to have his shoes on and had to be told.

Quote:

you contradict yourself.
are you or are you not asking us if we have a halachik source for our opinion.
The Rebbe does. The Rebbe answers your question about our "opinion" and the Rebbe brings sources.
but when I tell you to look there, you say "no thank you"
so are you or are you not interested in whether we have a halachik source for our opinion, are you or are you not interested in the answer to your question.
I offered you where you can find the answer and you say no thank you, what am I supposed to glean from that response other then you are not interested in the answer but only interested in stirring and challenging.

Quote:

Quote:
I am trying to be melamed z'chus on this whole parasha that the Rebbes involved were living in places where anyway people weren't able to sleep in the sukka.

WHO DO YOU THINK YOU ARE????
the Heiliger Rabbeim certainly don't need your limud zchus, you want to ask a question? you don't understand? then ask! but don't presume to know more then Tzaddikim and to understand the way of previous Rabbeim better then the later ones did.

I didn't say anything about any Rebbe.

I didn't say you did! I quoted what you said and took issue with it. I repeat: who do you think you are to think you are in a category of someone who has a right to think the Rabbeim need her limud zchus.

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I am just trying to understand how a small % of Jews

did you take a poll? did you run a statistic?

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who want to keep halacha have come to have a "minhag" which is against the halacha.

according to psak mummyof6 that is!
you have decided its against halacho but haven't ventured to properly investigate how it is that others don't agree with your psak. again if you want to REALLY know, refer to the sicha I told you and then if you still have questions ask a proper authority.

gryp

Sat, Sep 09 2006, 10:25 pm

just to interject a point here to explain why this thread has taken a turn for the worse.

mummyof6- the minhagim of Chabad come from high sources of holiness, and the Rebbeim and Chassidim were moiser nefesh (endangered their lives) for them. These minhagim were instituted by the various Rebbeim, and (as its been explained many times on the forum) these Rebbeim are on a level that is greater than the greatest Tzaddik.

for anyone to to declare that a minhag which has been instituted by a person of such stature might be against halacha, is not only ludicrous but extremely insulting.
hence Ozmom's: HOW DARE YOU.

as to your question, how can a minhag seemingly look as if it contradicts halacha, it can be a valid question, no doubt, but a little silly (dont you think?) to take your own research up against the the Rebbeim of Chabad.

Ozmom

Sat, Sep 09 2006, 10:45 pm

Quote:

as to your question, how can a minhag seemingly look as if it contradicts halacha, it can be a valid question, no doubt, but a little silly (dont you think?) to take your own research up against the the Rebbeim of Chabad.

She is not interested in the research of the Rebbeim as she herself said "No Thankyou" when I offered her a means of finding out.

By those 3 words she has proven that her intent on this thread is not to ascertain emes but to antagonise and provoke.

To reiterate what was said before, its fine to ask a question, as long as thats what you are really doing, but when offered a means to an answer you say "no thank you" then its no longer a question but a provocation.

If mummyof6 is truly interested in what our answer to her question about our minhogim is, then she wouldn't be saying no thankyou to the response, but she would take me up on my answer and go and research where I told her the answer lies.

*edited to add: reading over this thread again, Motek has provided wonderful answers WITH sources, and any further questioning on the topic is not coming from a place of interest and if it were, it would be phrased as "I don't understand"

mummyof6 your responses to the answers that have been given already are evasive and beating around the bush.
for example: I wrote

Quote:

the tannaim and amaroim clearly were aware of something as they did not sleep (As mentioned above)

you responded:

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Who says they didn't sleep in the sukka? (ch"v) During the night they were at the Simchas beis Hashoeva.

Yup in other words THEY DID NOT SLEEP!!!!
as far as what the shulchan oruch says about tzar, shulchan oruch does not limit what tzar is. It may give some examples but tzar is an individual thing, and shulchan oruch puts no limit on it.

shalhevet

Sun, Sep 10 2006, 3:29 am

Ozmom wrote:

also mummyof6 you did not repsond to the story I posted.
How do YOU excuse desecrating the holinesss of the succah in such a manner? whether you feel the makif or not

1. The whole way you wrote this story using words like 'sprawled' and the whole tone, didn't make me feel like replying. But since you asked again I will, although I really don't like the way you have altered the tone of this thread from a discussion on the topic in which people expressed themselves respectfully one to the other, to 'bashing'.

2. I don't have to answer for the wrong behaviour of every non-Lub Jew in the world, just like I wouldn't bring you a story of 'I know a Lubavitcher who behaved wrongly' to use in an argument. What has that to do with anything? [Maybe you didn't give him a bed. Very Happy

]

3. The story seems to imply that the climate was appropriate for sleeping in the sukka so unless your FIL was sick or otherwise unable to sleep in the sukka, he was mevatel the mitzva asei midoraisa of sleeping in the sukka which the guest kept.

4. Since when do we not keep mitzvos because we don't keep them bishleimus? Does someone not daven because he won't always have the right kavanas? Maybe this guy finds it hard to stay on his side while sleeping.

Also, I didn't understand your point about the Tanaim. No-one says someone has to stop what they are doing and go to sleep in the sukka. Rather if someone wants to go to sleep, it has to be in the sukka. Mali mentioned earlier that they napped on each others shoulders - I didn't manage to find a source to that one. I did find in Sefer Hatoda'ah [Book of our Heritage] that one of the Tana'im said he didn't sleep all night during the Simchas Beis Hashoeva. Unfortunately there wasn't a reference there and it wasn't clear to me if he was talking only about himself or generally about everyone who was there. I would presume that at some point during sukkos they went to sleep [since it says that it is impossible for someone not to sleep for more than 3 days consecutively] and then it was in a sukka.

I explained that it is not my p'sak, but the p'sak of the Shulchan Aruch and Rambam [and, yes, of our own Rav].

I also have another question. How many of the husbands/ fathers/ sons of the posters who follow this minhag would have genuine tza'ar today if they slept in the sukka? [Not including those who have tza'ar due to the weather/cold.]

Ozmom

Sun, Sep 10 2006, 3:51 am

your response is still not acknowledging all the answers you were already given. whether the man was sprawled or not, the fact is that in his sleep he rolled on his back. the fact is many men do this, my husband included and regardless of his reasons, in doing what he was doing he caused a desecration in the succah.
If he was a Lubavitcher chossid perhaps then the knowledge of what he had done would distress him to the point of having too much tza'ar to sleep in the succah again.

so in answer to your last question

Quote:

I also have another question. How many of the husbands/ fathers/ sons of the posters who follow this minhag would have genuine tza'ar today if they slept in the sukka? [Not including those who have tza'ar due to the weather/cold.]

my husband for starters, knowing full well that he snores terribly and rolls on his back at night and having been made aware of the makif regardless of if he is a tzaddik and sees it or not, the knowledge that he could be causing a gnai as such mentioned above would YES cause him genuine tzaar!

and as for other men, motek didn't want to spell it out perhaps, but another thing not in the control of all men is having a "keri" which is what was being referred to by not in control...

and as for my father in law, my husbands father, if my husband developed his sensitivity from him, then no he wasn't going against halocho.

as far as me altering the tone of this thread, you did it yourself by insisting that chabad chassidim are going against halocho and not taking into account that maybe there is something that YOU don't understand.
it is YOU that presume to know more then the Rabbeim of Chabad by insisting we are going against halocho...but no I forget, you are excusing the Rabbeim and being melamed zchus on them... and insisting that the reason they didn't sleep in the succha is not as the Rebbe of Lubavitch explained,
so perhaps its only he, that you are disagreeing and presuming to know more then,
oh but again I forget, you don't know what he has to say because you have turned down an offer of finding out.

Again I'll say, you have said nothing to refute the points motek and mali explained to you. you have merely beated around the bush and continued arguing with nothing to back up your argument other then using the very same sources that actually refute your own arguments

edited to add:
my husband corrects me.
he says not only would the knowledge cause him tzaar but he wouldn't be able to fall asleep in the first instance.

mommyof6
minhag yisroel torah hi, and if jews have a minhag established by holy rabbeim then challenging that minhag and trying to discredit a minhag is trying to discredit Torah.
as I said before you want to ask then ask but you are not asking you are judging and accusing a whole group of yidden, following minhagim established by Tzaddikim greater then you and your rov.[/b]

Last edited by Ozmom on Sun, Sep 10 2006, 9:09 am; edited 3 times in total

mali

Sun, Sep 10 2006, 5:15 am

mummyof6 wrote:

Mali mentioned earlier that they napped on each others shoulders - I didn't manage to find a source to that one. I did find in Sefer Hatoda'ah [Book of our Heritage] that one of the Tana'im said he didn't sleep all night during the Simchas Beis Hashoeva. Unfortunately there wasn't a reference there and it wasn't clear to me if he was talking only about himself or generally about everyone who was there. I would presume that at some point during sukkos they went to sleep [since it says that it is impossible for someone not to sleep for more than 3 days consecutively] and then it was in a sukka.

Sukka 53a, and it refutes your presumption in the brackets as well.

gryp

Sun, Sep 10 2006, 9:23 am

Ozmom, mummyof6 has made her position quite clear many many times on the forum.
that said, she still has a "right" to ask: it looks like this minhag goes against halacha, how does it not?

mummyof6, just like when someone comes to learn about Yiddishkeit, unless they come to do so with the understanding and basis that the Torah is true NO MATTER WHAT, the same way, when someone wants to understand something about Chasidim, the understanding and basis has to be that the Rebbeim were Tzaddikim on the highest level NO MATTER WHAT.

if a person is not ready to accept that fact, not only will he CH"V never understand anything about Chasidim, but any questions he will have will be coming from ignorance and sound arrogant and insolent. how much more so if he is not considered to be a Talmid Chacham by any means.

gryp

Sun, Sep 10 2006, 10:02 am

I'm being tough? where? what did I say? I even acknowledged that mummyof6 has a right to ask the question!

Quote:

As a practical matter "This is what I do because it's what my Rebbe taught" is perfectly valid.
As an intellectual exercise, though, it's not very satisfying. Especially when it's accompanied by "My Rebbe is greater than your Rebbe".

I didnt say any of that.

the answer has been given many times before in this very thread. in short: the Halacha does not obligate you to sleep in the sukkah if it causes you Tza'ar (distress). and it causes a Chassid Tza'ar to sleep in such a holy place that shines forth with the highest level of G-dly light. (and if it doesnt cause the Chassid Tza'ar for that reason, then it causes him Tza'ar that he doesnt feel the G-dly light.) Either way, it causes him Tza'ar and that is the Minhag.