over night Shabbos guests boy/girl children

supermama2

Fri, Feb 25 2011, 2:56 am

I wasn't sure wether to post this under friends or guests...

I am going to give a bit of extra info so you can get the whole picture...NOT to cause strife btwn. groups!! My dearest friend is dati leumi ( I'm Charedi ), she has several kids kah but most are girls aged 12 and under. She mentioned to me that she is staying all of Shabbos by a Chassidish family...this family has BOYS w/ the oldest around 11 I think. My friend lives in another town than me and this Chassidish family. In my circles you do not allow such an arrangement as overnight guests like this. This friend of mine is wondering what's my deal and why I'm so "mean" by not having her family over but is gracious enough to not say much about it. She knows that I find this arrangement inappropriate but her argument is that 'ah nothing's going to happen between the kids'...That's not the main issue...such a lax situation invites a loose attiude of boys and girls spending time together among other issues. My Rav. would not alllow such a situation out of modesty alone. I guess I'm writing to ask you opinion on handling this friend who thinks 'well if a chassidish family has us over why can't you?'....Thanks for any thoughts you want to share on this...

I had to add another piece of info. My friend lives over an hour bus ride away ( more like 2 ) and we've seen eachother only once since I made aliyah this past summer b/c of this. This fact prob. makes her feel more like "hello..why can't you have us over"..

DrMom

Fri, Feb 25 2011, 3:33 am

SarahO. wrote:

Why can they have your friend over? Do they go to the same rav as you do?

Tamiri

Fri, Feb 25 2011, 3:51 am

Is it a problem because of YOUR family make-up?
If so there are a couple of solutions which come to mind:
(1) Have your children who are not to mix with hers sleep elsewhere
(2) Have her children who are a problem not come with her when she visits.
(3) Borrow an apartment for them to sleep in.

I am not in your world, but I've lived in neighborhoods with plenty of Chareidi people including kollel families and I never heard of this kind of uber separation. Especially if the kids are bar/bat mitzva. You can't serve a meal with 2 families mingling? This does seem a bit severe.

supermama2

Fri, Feb 25 2011, 4:00 am

[quote="Tamiri"]Is it a problem because of YOUR family make-up?
If so there are a couple of solutions which come to mind:
(1) Have your children who are not to mix with hers sleep elsewhere
(2) Have her children who are a problem not come with her when she visits.
(3) Borrow an apartment for them to sleep in.

I am not in your world, but I've lived in neighborhoods with plenty of Chareidi people including kollel families and I never heard of this kind of uber separation. Especially if the kids are bar/bat mitzva. You can't serve a meal with 2 families mingling? This does seem a bit severe.[/quote

The issue isn't serving a meal together. They would stay here till motzai Shabbos, that's the problem. Options 1,2,and 3 are out for me I'm afraid...I didn't directly ask my Rav. about this but I have seen how he conducts the home on these issues. I don't want to drag my Rav into this lol..My friend can not come here solo during the week b/c of her kids getting out from school at 1 in the afternoon and it taking so long to get from her place to mine and vice versa. I can't say "ok you come here with your one boy and leave your dh and other kids home..." Maybe HER girls could stay w/ someone over Shabbos b/c she is better connected where she is than me here..but wouldn't it be weird to ask her to do such a thing?

Tamiri

Fri, Feb 25 2011, 4:09 am

SarahO. wrote:

The issue isn't serving a meal together. They would stay here till motzai Shabbos, that's the problem. Options 1,2,and 3 are out for me I'm afraid...I didn't directly ask my Rav. about this but I have seen how he conducts the home on these issues. I don't want to drag my Rav into this lol..My friend can not come here solo during the week b/c of her kids getting out from school at 1 in the afternoon and it taking so long to get from her place to mine and vice versa. I can't say "ok you come here with your one boy and leave your dh and other kids home..." Maybe HER girls could stay w/ someone over Shabbos b/c she is better connected where she is than me here..but wouldn't it be weird to ask her to do such a thing?

What is the problem davka with Motzash? I don't understand. For her to be in a house with your husband? That's why I suggested borrowing an apartment, which I understand can be problematic. This is DAVKA the type of thing to ask a Rav, if you are seeking guidance. You may be surprised at what he recommends.
Actually, I don't think it would be so bad if you told her you can host just her, her DH and their son. If she's sensitive to Chareidim, she will understand. In fact, what the heck will her daughters do there for a whole Shabbat - it's probably nice for them to be with their own friends. This way, you give her an option and she can take it or leave it. If it were me, I'd take it: a free Shabbat without most of the kids sounds attractive!
Being open is probably the best way to go. Don't compare your family with Chassidim or anyone else. Explain your comfort level, your solutions, and let her do with it as she pleases.

supermama2

Fri, Feb 25 2011, 4:17 am

Tamiri wrote:

SarahO. wrote:

I'm glad you said that I should ask my friend to come w/ her son and her DH.. that sounds great to me. Her son is the age of one of mine...I hope she wouldn't be insulted...In case anyone is interested, I'll ask her and bli neder post the reply here sometime Smile

I didn't know if that was a too far out here offer for her...I'd really enjoy it.

DrMom

Fri, Feb 25 2011, 4:19 am

I travel in different circles, so pardon me if these questions seem obtuse, but I'm not sure I understand the problem definition. Is it the sleeping arrangements? Can you arrange to have all the girls (yours+hers) share one room and all the boys share another?

Is it just being together at all (other than at meals)?

What does motzei shabbat have to do with it?

supermama2

Fri, Feb 25 2011, 4:56 am

DrMom wrote:

Well I have one girl...a baby Smile

I can arrange everyone in seaparate rooms, that's not the issue. It's the casualness involved with those of a dif. gender by having them sleep over. Motzei shabbos was mentioned b/c they'd stay till then I.e. staying over Fri. night. Sorry if it doesn't sound reasonable but it is what it is Smile

Isramom8

Fri, Feb 25 2011, 6:49 am

My dds' Bnei Brak BY hs officially discouraged girls sleeping over one another's homes, because of tznius - I think that means because the friends' brothers and father are around when everyone is in pjs. So this concept definitely exists.

It can be done respectfully, where everyone says good night while still fully dressed and then retires to their own quarters till daylight. Or it can become a casual late night giggly hangout with noshing and joking.

If you are uncomfortable, probably better just to say that it isn't done in your community, or that your rav doesn't smile on it, than try to explain and get her arguments.

zaq

Fri, Feb 25 2011, 8:51 am

SarahO. wrote:

Maybe HER girls could stay w/ someone over Shabbos b/c she is better connected where she is than me here..but wouldn't it be weird to ask her to do such a thing?

I'm going to admit that I would feel awful if a friend invited me for Shabbat and told me any of my kids were not welcome. I would be polite and say "yes, of course, I understand, this is your way of life and nothing personal, don't worry about it," but inside let me tell you I would feel very, very hurt, even while I do in fact understand that strict separation is your way.

She's your friend and presumably you know how she thinks. Would she be offended if you asked her to make alternative arrangements for her dds? I don't think it would be a weird thing to do, but I think it would be less than hospitable. The right thing to do would be to invite the whole family and make alternative sleeping arrangements for your children. If you can't do it, you can't do it, but that's life. I believe that that's what most charedi people do whose children invite friends to stay over--send their own children of the opposite gender to sleep over with other families.

And I just figured out why I would be so hurt if a friend asked me to leave my ds or dd at home: because you are saying they're not welcome. If you really did welcome them, then you would do what I said above--get rid of your kids, not mine.

moonstone

Fri, Feb 25 2011, 9:50 am

I had never heard of such strict separation until recently- it seems that there is a very strong push to keep boys and girls from socializing- you hear about teenagers not being allowed to go to pizza places and such because there's a fear that they'll hang out with members of the opposite zex. A friend was in Jerusalem recently and told me of a restaurant that had separate FLOORS for boys and girls (though families could eat together, I think).

Personally, I think it's wrong, not to mention counter-productive, but that's a different thread.

saw50st8

Fri, Feb 25 2011, 9:53 am

zaq wrote:

SarahO. wrote:

Maybe HER girls could stay w/ someone over Shabbos b/c she is better connected where she is than me here..but wouldn't it be weird to ask her to do such a thing?

I agree with this post. However, Isramom added that girls are told not to stay at their friends, so I'm not sure if its feasible either.