"Punished by Rewards" - provocative!

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Motek

Thu, Sep 14 2006, 9:29 am

Quote:

Do this and you'll get that. Sound familiar? It's the basic strategy we use to raise our children, according to Alfie Kohn. As the author of Punished By Rewards: The Trouble with Gold Stars, Incentive Plans, A's, Praise, and Other Bribes (Houghton Mifflin), Kohn has ardently spoken out against incentive plans to encourage good grades and behavior. FamilyEducation editor Ann Svensen spoke with Mr. Kohn about why this reward-based mentality is harming our kids.

Question: What's the trouble with rewards?

Kohn: First let's define the term. A reward is not just something nice or desired, it's something nice or desired that is offered contingently when someone complies with our wishes or does something we like. If I give you a banana, that's not a reward. If I give you a banana for having helped me around the house, that's a reward. I have no objection to taking a kid out for ice cream, but I have a serious objection to saying, "If you are good this week, I'll take you out for ice cream."

Question: What is your objection?

Question:More than 70 studies have found that the more you reward people for doing something, the more they lose interest in whatever they had to do to get the reward. It's not just that rewards are ineffective over the long haul; it's that they are actively counterproductive Exclamation

Question: But I'm sure most parents would argue that rewards work.

Kohn: They do work in the short term, but at a great cost. Rewards, like punishments, are useful for getting exactly one thing: temporary compliance. By bribing or threatening kids, you can get them to do what you want as long as the reward or the punishment keeps coming. You'll never get anything more substantial than that.

Two recent studies have found that children whose parents reward or praise them frequently tend to be less generous and caring than their peers. That might strike some people as surprising, but when you think about it, it makes perfect sense. The child who has been praised or rewarded for doing something nice has learned that the only reason to continue being nice is to get something for it. When there is no longer a goody to be gained, there is absolutely no reason for the child to continue helping. And indeed, less reason than if the child had been authentically supported in becoming a compassionate person from the beginning.

more here:
http://life.familyeducation.co......html

So? What do you think? Have you (parents, teachers) found that you have to keep upping the reward/incentive or the kids are not interested? How about kids who are not motivated by rewards to begin with?

mali

Thu, Sep 14 2006, 9:38 am

What about the concept of "משחדין ליה" when educating children?

What about "מתוך שלא לשמה בא לשמה"?

I don't think the correct question is whether to give rewards, but rather how to use them wisely.

JRKmommy

Thu, Sep 14 2006, 12:36 pm

We had a lively debate about Alfie Kohn on another site.

I do agree that bribery is only effective in the short term.

I have seen some counter-productive rewards. They rely heavily on them for the kids program at my shul - which gets the kids totally riled up and focused on the rewards. They use token now, but what really bothered me was when they used candy for rewards - and all the kids were then bouncing off the walls on a sugar high.

HOWEVER - I think that we SHOULD notice and praise the good things that our kids do. Kids crave attention. We can ignore kids when they are behaving, react when they aren't, and then wonder why our kids always seem to act up to get attention. Or, we can notice and praise the good stuff they do, and they may do more of it. I loved the mitzvah notes that they do at the Chabad nursery schools - my girls wants to be "mitzvah girls" all the time. They did the tzedakah routine with lots of praise for dropping the penny in the pushke, and they started to really think that money is for tzedakah. So, there is a shaping of behaviour that is going on.

Another distinction is that Alfie Kohn writes from a basically secular perspective. Part of the criticism of praise, for example, is that it is considered a more subtle form of coersion. I can understand the idea of allowing a child's genuine feelings and interests to be expressed in school context (maybe a child should be following an interest in how something works, for example, instead of being encouraged through praise to finish some art). However, in the moral arena, there certainly are objective standards which I want my kids to follow, and I make no apologies for that.

Along the same lines - a crucial difference with the praise re "mitzvah notes", for example, is that it's not just mommy or daddy giving the praise. We say that we know that Hashem likes what they have done. The kids learn to internalize the idea that even when mommy and daddy aren't there, Hashem is and the standards still apply.

Tefila

Thu, Sep 14 2006, 1:26 pm

Quote:

I don't think the correct question is whether to give rewards, but rather how to use them wisely.

mali

roza

Thu, Sep 14 2006, 2:49 pm

Quote:

Two recent studies have found that ...

...and I thought that we don't believe any scientific studies here on Imamother Scratching Head

or is it a 'selective process'?

Anyway, on the topic.
Instead of 'rewards' we use 'consequences'.
For example- video (kosher), bike riding, pizza trip, computer game and other things that children enjoy doing are privileges.
If the wrong behavior occurs then a consequence will be the lost of certain privilege. If all rules were kept then there will be no 'consequences' but it's not the same as reward. We don't use 'rewards'. But sometimes I might give prise for learning all the multiplication facts right, or any other situation that needs short term improvement.
So in the end, all the rules must be kept and all the subjects must be studied, and help is done around the house without any rewards.

healthymama

Thu, Sep 14 2006, 5:43 pm

Lets all go to work without the rewards of a paycheck. I mean, all of our jobs and our husbands' jobs are meaningful enough and we wouldn't want to damage that by accepting a reward, right ?

Tefila

Thu, Sep 14 2006, 5:46 pm

Quote:

For example- video (kosher), bike riding, pizza trip, computer game and other things that children enjoy doing are privileges.
If the wrong behavior occurs then a consequence will be the lost of certain privilege. If all rules were kept then there will be no 'consequences' but it's not the same as reward. We don't use 'rewards'. But sometimes I might give prise for learning all the multiplication facts right, or any other situation that needs short term improvement. So in the end, all the rules must be kept and all the subjects must be studied, and help is done around the house without any rewards

Roza

Motek

Thu, Sep 14 2006, 6:55 pm

healthymama wrote:

Lets all go to work without the rewards of a paycheck. I mean, all of our jobs and our husbands' jobs are meaningful enough and we wouldn't want to damage that by accepting a reward, right ?

A salary is not a reward but payment for work done. Bonuses would be rewards.

roza wrote:

...and I thought that we don't believe any scientific studies here

huh?

I understand what you're saying about consequences and I'm not disagreeing with you but Alfie Kohn sure does! And I don't see how you're differentiating between a reward and a prize.

mali - the point is that bribes are not working, that's the metzius. For a spiritual understanding about why, you can learn the Rebbe's sicha on Vayeira - it's in the thread "About Bribes and Rewards" in the chinuch section (I'll revive the thread for you)

klotzkashe

Thu, Sep 14 2006, 7:12 pm

id' have to agree with mali.

I think a parent would find a rewards system good. however I would say that there should be unconditional giving to the child from time to time. that not everything should depend on rewards.

and also, most theories can never be applied 100% to all situations. what's in the itnerest of the child is dependant on him, his parents and their mode of parenting, whether they are very active and involved parents etc. etc.

but it would be pretty hard to bring up kdis w/ no reward system! OMG!

healthymama

Thu, Sep 14 2006, 7:18 pm

Quote:

A salary is not a reward but payment for work done. Bonuses would be rewards

No, I am not clear why you would expect children to do something difficult for them with no positive consequences while even adults would not do that. Whether or not the positive consequence is tangible or abstract is a completely different conversation.

Ruchel

Fri, Sep 15 2006, 2:34 am

Quote:

But sometimes I might give prise for learning all the multiplication facts right

I still don't know them by heart, who will reward me if I learn them? Twisted Evil

Motek

Fri, Sep 15 2006, 7:57 am

healthymama wrote:

I am not clear why you would expect children to do something difficult for them with no positive consequences while even adults would not do that.

Why? Because of the relationship you've established. Everything you do for people you do because they reward you? Surely not! You do things for your parents, siblings, parents, friends, even when it's hard and there is no reward, because of the relationship. We even do things for strangers, our fellow Jews, because of our relationship with them, our Jewish brothers and sisters.

mali

Sun, Sep 17 2006, 2:11 am

Doing good unconditionally is something we build into our systems over time. Chesed, for example, is an inborn Jewish trait. However, we have to motivate our children to do it when they're young, until the act itself becomes the reward.

I agree with healthymama about the salary being a reward. I love my job. I also know and see how much it means to people. Still, I wouldn't do it without the paycheck. Why is that any different than my child's learning Mishnayos by heart?

mali

Sun, Sep 17 2006, 2:38 am

Here's another example. Go look at the Shalom Bayis threads. How many of them are about being unnoticed or unappreciated? Now, these are women who understand and believe in the importance of their Tafkid. Nevertheless, we need the fuel to keep us going. How can we expect little children to do what's right without being rewarded?

morningstar

Sun, Sep 17 2006, 5:58 am

Mali, I am not sure that unappreciated wives are looking for prizes. They are looking for a caring, sensitive relationship at home. That is something that takes time to build, and that prizes can't fix.

A wife does not want a husband who tallies up how many things she made for Shabbos that week and says "thanks" if it three or less, "thanks a lot" if it is between three and five", and "wow, thank you, you did a really great job this week" if it is five or more or includes his favorite food.
She is not looking for a reward system, she is looking for someone who genuinely is aware of what she is doing.

Neither will it help if she decides to give HIM prizes for learning to say thank you-- a smile for a thanks, a "your welcome" for a thanks a lot, and an extra serving of dessert if he says "wow, thank you, you did a really great job this week." She does not want to feel that she "bought" his thanks, she wants it to be freely given.

If a mother of a new baby is having trouble getting supper on the time on time, she will be very happy if her husband talks to her about how he can help make things easier for her.. whether by coming home from work a bit earlier, taking care of the children as soon as he comes home, moving supper time a bit later.. ordering in the main dish for a month or two.. but she will feel deeply insulted and misunderstood if he offers her a prize such as ten dollars for each time she has supper on the table on time (and even angrier if this strategy does not work and he suggests a punishment for each time she is late).

Now, mind you,the wife may arrange to award herself with flowers on the table each time supper is ready on time, or some other such thing-- the reason this feels different is that she is in control of motivating herself, rather than being manipulated.

Mali, wives want appreciation (deep change), which is indicative of a caring relationship, but they don't want a "reward." Stars, or dollar bills, or candies thrown their way when they do what their husbands "want" would strike them as infantilizing and disrespectful.

As to getting paid for work-- work is an exchange, not a system of adults handing you rewards. Even at the most highly paid job, people want to be treated with respect, not yanked around like a trained seal.
Nobody just shows up and sits around all day until the boss offers a goody, and then jumps. The boss hires you because you have something to offer his business; you work because he has something to offer you-- and in a good work relationship, you both feel that you are being offered something of value. The work relationship will survive for as long as both of you feel you are getting a fair exchange for your contribution.

But I would not work for a boss who felt he was handing me a "reward" every time he handed me my pay check. Nor do I feel my pay check is a prize-- I feel that it is something I have earned. Neither would I hire an employee who sits around all day doing nothing until I offer a reward.

And pirkei avos tells us quite clearly not to be like the servants who serve their master on condition they will get a reward...

shalhevet

Sun, Sep 17 2006, 6:09 am

morningstar I think mali's point is that people still want "prizes" as they grow, just the form of the prize changes. Of course a wife will be insulted if her husband "pays" her $10 for supper ready on time, but a thank you or a smile or a word of appreciation are the prizes which are appropriate to a wife.
It would be the same if you gave a 15 year old a sticker for learning for two hours a day during Bein Hazemanim. But when he was 3 that was appropriate.
The gemora discusses rewarding children (not just) for learning Torah and the final stage is that learn so that people will call you rav. Certainly not a material prize, but a prize of honour which a young (or not so young) man feels it's worth striving for.
The pirkei avos you mentioned is the ideal which a person should get to (the Master being Hashem; it's not talking about working for free Wink

).
There are plenty of adults who haven't yet reached this stage. But we hope that by training our children to do mitzvos for the "prizes"/words of praise/ pat on the back etc when they are young, they will eventually reach the ideal of Pirkei Avos as adults.

chanab

Sun, Sep 17 2006, 6:17 am

Didn´t the Previous L Rebbe receive money for learning mishnayos baal peh?I believe he created a gemach with the money. My kids have learned A LOT of mishnayos and tanya baal peh using this system.

Meema2Kids

Sun, Sep 17 2006, 6:20 am

When my children first started saying brachos, we praised them lavishly. We gradually decreased the praise... and now they say the brachos so nicely, on their own, with no regular praise...

roza

Sun, Sep 17 2006, 6:24 am

We need to differentiate between 'recognition' and 'reward', good point , morningstar.

All of us want to be 'recognized' or 'acknowledged' for what we are doing, it can come from a husband, friends, community, mentors, teachers and so on.

Recognition can be with and without reward. Also, recognition without reward (smile, thanks, verbal approval and so on) is in itself a great motivator, albeit, cost effective.

It is very difficult to function and be productive without anyone's recognition. That's why we see mothers and wives at home who are dysfunctional, unproductive, dissatisfied, unmotivated and easily depressed. While at school and at work they don't feel so because their efforts, study and work is being recognized and acknowledged, it's a part of school and work environment. There are lots of studies that demonstrate this.

This imamother network helps to motivate stay at home mothers. On this site SAHMs repeatedly get encouragements and praise for their work, there is 'someone' out there who recognized what they are doing.

LubavitchLeah

Sun, Sep 17 2006, 8:53 am

In terms of being motivated through rewards.
Ill extend this to the success of Applied Behavioural Analysis (ABA therapy)
This is a type of Behavioural approach commonly used to work with kids on the Autistic Spectrum,to motivate them through external rewards thereby reinforcing the behaviours you would like.
The main critique of this behavioural method is:
1. SUPERFICIAL
2. Non generalizable
Ofcourse this is a contentious issue and many claim GREAT success.
There is always a yang for every ying so to speak.
So the opposite therapy used in the States, not yet widely in Canada, although research is currently being done at York University on the benefits of this other therapy, called "Floortime" therapy. This is Dr Stanley Greenspans model and works on motivating the child, not through reward like the behavioural but rather through the relationship.
Example the smile and laugh of the mom to child encourages him to move closer to her rather than the treat he will recieve. So its all about interaction, warmth, the relationship that is facilitated.
In Time magazine a few months back they discussed both these therapies back to back.

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