My mother wants to be 'honored' if I have a bris

shevi82

Sun, May 01 2011, 3:08 am

My grandparents were Kvater at my last ds's Bris. It was so beautiful, My grandmother was so happy.
Being Kvatar as mentioned above is not only a Bracha for children, it's a Bracha for anything.

Health is a Virture

Sun, May 01 2011, 4:20 am

hadasa wrote:

We've had older couple or mother/son Kvatters.
You might want to ask a Rav if it's OK to have a couple who doesn't keep TH. Or not have them pass the baby directly to each other, but to have another Kvatter couple in between.

I was thinking the same thing because from what I understand the whole reason we have kvatters is because the husband and wife are not allowed to pass things from one to another because they are in nidda. By having another couple, who is not in nidda, and therebye allowed to pass between each other, pass the baby, you are correcting this problem.

Since this couple is enabling the baby's parents to practice taharas mishpacha, so therefore it is a segula for them. Hope, the grammar and english came out sounding right. (I am in the middle of working in hebrew and so I am not in english-mode right now.)

chanchy123

Sun, May 01 2011, 6:15 am

At my son's brit my mother insisted that my then single sister should be honored, so I passed the baby to her and she passed the baby to my other (young married) sister who was kvater with her DH. No big deal, I've been to britot where the baby is passed several times.
Make sure to put on a big show for your mother while passing the baby to her (have the photographer take a picture) maybe you could have the kibudim announced (some people do this some people don't).

tsiggelle

Sun, May 01 2011, 6:36 am

op, before naming after your mother, you should be at piece with the name. it doesnt pay to give her the honour only to resent your child or feeling angry that you were forced into it.

saw50st8

Sun, May 01 2011, 9:27 am

I'm a little disturbed by the "demanding honor" of the OPs mother.

zaq

Sun, May 01 2011, 8:32 pm

I absolutely don't think it's odd for the grandparent/s to serve as kvater/in. IMO they're the most logical people to get this honor. It doesn't "belong" to a couple suffering from infertility. That's only become a custom b/c being kvater/in is considered a segula, but you don't 'owe" it to anyone. You give it to whomever you wish to honor or include. Whether you want to give this honor to your mother is a separate question. I'm sensing some negative energy and resentment on your part, which I can understand, but if all that's keeping you from appeasing your mum is the thought that the honor "belongs" to an infertile couple, lay that one to rest. It belongs to whomever you please.
You can also pull the multiple kavterim trick by having one lady bring the baby partway, hand him off to another lady who brings the baby to her hubby who passes him to the first lady's hubby. It looks a little overcomplicated, but if it'll make for peace in the family while letting you include the people you really want, why not?

chocolate moose

Sun, May 01 2011, 8:37 pm

First of all, she's getting to be the new grandmother. That's a huge kovod.

Secondly, it's a shaylah for a rov about who should be kvater. I think OP should ask before she decides.

Thirdly, not everyone holds that it's a kovod to pass the baby around In Lubavitch we DEF do not do that !!!

Pickle Lady

Sun, May 01 2011, 8:44 pm

OP should speak to a Rav if she thinks there is a problem. Also remember shalom bayis is also really important.

At one of my son's brissim the kvaterin we chose forgot that the wife was in niddah and a person had to hand the baby to from the wife to the husband. It was no big deal.

chocolate moose

Sun, May 01 2011, 8:56 pm

Except that not everyone goes by that. I was told that in Lubavitch we don't.

octopus

Sun, May 01 2011, 9:00 pm

I dunno. In my fam, I pass the baby to my grandmother, who passes it to my mom, who passes it to the couple that my dh and I choose. So all those ppl are "kvater?"

aidelmaidel

Sun, May 01 2011, 9:34 pm

I have seen Rabbis Shain, Heller, and the 3rd one who's name is escaping me at the moment, all allow at different times:

- more then one "set" of kvatterin (many, many, many times)
- a pregnant kvatter when the original kvatter became niddah that morning (I was the very obviously pregnant one)
- the baby passed to several single women, the official "kvatter", and then several single men
- grandparent kvatterin (I can think of at least 2 brissim that way)
- a grandparent who served as sandek more then once for the same child's family
- a father who served as sandek for his own child

etc. etc. etc.

To say, "That in Lubavitch we don't do _____." is a very dangerous statement. There is halacha and there is minhag, and not to say one is less then the other, but certainly there is a lot of leeway.

chocolate moose

Sun, May 01 2011, 9:38 pm

I only know what I learned, what I asked about, and what I was taught. What "is sometimes allowed" doesn't have any meaning for me.

mominisrael2

Mon, May 02 2011, 2:32 am

We gave my parents and MIL kvatter and FIL sandek -- it was the perfect way to honor them all (and avoid things being weird considering my in-laws are divorced).

Marion

Mon, May 02 2011, 2:38 am

DS#1, MIL & FIL were kvater/kvaterin.
DS#2, SIL & BIL (she, 5 months PG) were kvater/kvaterin.
DS#3, we wanted to give another BIL/SIL (she 4 months PG) but she didn't get there in time, so it was MIL/BIL.

DS#1 my great-uncle was sandek.
DS#2 FIL was sandek.
DS#3 a very, very, very close friend was sandek.

My parents have not been able to be at any of the britot.

JAWSCIENCE

Mon, May 02 2011, 8:24 am

I would like to add another point of view. I find asking or demanding for an honor very distasteful. However I can also see a little bit where your Mom might be coming from.

Many women find it very difficult to deal with the fact that at a lot of Jewish events and simchot there is no active role for them. Your mother might really want to be an active player in her grandsons bris and feel a part of it all. Even though sandek is a great honor she does not get to do anything. She is just the same as every other woman - watching a bunch of stuff from the ladyies section. The role of kvater on the other hand is the one thing a woman gets to actively do in this whole ceremony (besides for ordering around the caterer or doing a lot of cooking if there is no caterer, and taking care of the baby once all the hulabaloo is over). Add to this the fact that in many sephardic groups it is the custom for the two grandmothers to walk in the baby together and you can see why she might really want to be kvater and thinks it should be something you let her do.

Just as it has become so common in ashkenaz circles to give kvater to a couple with no kids that we say it "belongs" to them, (even though anyone can do it and it is a segulah for lots of things) in my DH's sephardic circles it is so common for the grandmothers to walk in the baby they think it "belongs" to them. Same goes for naming. The ashkenaz moms all start claiming the names of unborn fetuses for their deceased relatives in the same way the sephardim who name for the living start claiming names for the couples parents. It is so common when DH's cousin announced she was pregnant we all asked what her FIL and MIL names were because obviously that is what they are going to name the baby - a girl after her MIL a boy after her FIL.

While in theory a couple should be allowed to choose their baby names if an ashkenaz girl who has a recently deceased grandmother for whom nobody as named a child, went and named her new baby girl a random name stam because she liked it, you better believe that in most families and communities people would tell her she did not do the right thing, how could she do such a thing to bubby blah blah blah. Do not delude yourself into thinking this is happening because your mother is sephardic. It happens in Jewish communities across the globe of many different ethnic backgrounds. We live in communities and families and customs have developed over time that sometimes impinge upon our free will. Do I think it is tacky and distasteful to demand such things? totally. But I know that most people still do. You are not alone, your mother is not unique and in the eyes of many she is not even a tiny bit wrong. She is just asking for what you to do is usually done.

What is done in lubavitch or any other sect does not matter to her - this is what is done in her circles under the guidance of her Rabbis. And your husband has a similiar set of minhagim. And when it comes to minhagim you ask YOUR rav what to do in your particular situation. I highly doubt any Rav is going to tell you that you must give kvater to an infertile couple if your mother wants it.

Granted this makes having a "mixed" marriage a little rough since you have to figure out how to blend the two customs, and might need frequent Rabbinic guidance but in this scenario I think it is relatively painless and simple. Why not give your mother kvater? Did you promise to someone else? Why are you so opposed to her having this role? Your father can still be sandeg. Your mother can be kvater with your brother, or hand the baby over to another lady. I have never heard of someones wife being kvater disqualifying them from being sandek. It seems to me there is something you are not telling us - does your dear friend need a yeshua and you want to give it to her? Or are you afraid of upsetting the apple cart in the marriage and DH's family by having some sephardic minhagim? Barring any other reason besides for not wanting to give something on principle to someone who demands it, I do not see why you are so opposed.

Marion

Mon, May 02 2011, 8:28 am

Alternatively, if you want to give your father sandek AND honour your mother, you could have her hold the baby when he gets his name. Although not widely done, we were told that there's no reason a woman can't do this; it's not a speaking role and as long as she's dressed appropriately it should be a non-issue.

(DS#3 is named for my late FIL and we really wanted to include each of FIL's siblings in the bris; so each of his brothers was given an honour and we asked his sister to hold the baby when the name was given.)

Besiyata Dishmaya

Wed, May 04 2011, 6:49 pm

Marion wrote:

Never heard of it and never saw this done in chareidi circles. Usually the baby is held next to the Rav or whoever says the name.

luscious

Wed, May 04 2011, 7:15 pm

tell her u r honoring her with the cutting lol

imasinger

Wed, May 04 2011, 7:52 pm

In addition to the suggestions made above, you might want to consider other ways of letting her feel important.

Would she appreciate a card saying how grateful you are to have her as a mother, or some flowers, or something else that shows how much you value her?

Anything that makes someone feel important is an honor. When my DS was born, I "honored" his much older sisters by letting them being the only ones (besides parents and grandparents) to hold the baby during the seuda.

Marion

Thu, May 05 2011, 12:29 am

Besiyata Dishmaya wrote:

Marion wrote:

Never heard of it and never saw this done in chareidi circles. Usually the baby is held next to the Rav or whoever says the name.

I'm not chareidi, and it's not clear that OP is chareidi. And yes, the baby was still held next to the man we honoured with kriat ha'shem.