Why are you posting about how great hachnasas orchim is...

amother

Fri, May 06 2011, 9:44 am

I'm irked by a post on the recent hachnasas orchim thread.

Please think carefully about whether you should be posting about how great hachnasas orchim is, when you yourself almost never host. When someone hosts you, do you sit and let your hostess clear the table, while you chat with the husbands? Do you go to other families multiple times but never issue a reciprocal invite? Do you actively hint for invites on Facebook? Then please, think twice before posting about what an amazing thing hachnasas orchim is!

I don't want to get too specific here. I'm just saying that there's a disconnect between your ideals and your reality, and maybe you shouldn't be posting telling other people what their attitude should be.

amother

Fri, May 06 2011, 9:51 am

Meow.

Liba

Fri, May 06 2011, 9:55 am

We host but are very very rarely hosted... Most of the time it is a great experience, except the odd set of seminary girls. Wink

I am sure we are far from the only ones. Smile

StrawberrySmoothie

Fri, May 06 2011, 9:57 am

Maybe this is better sent in a PM? Otherwise, how do you know what each poster does or does not do?

sky

Fri, May 06 2011, 10:32 am

I have no clue what you are reffering to.

But some people are in painful situations you may not know about. And an invite may save their entire week. So yes, in their case hachnasas orchim is a hug mitzva. It is revitalizing the person and keeping them from being in a painful setting (home alone, abusive situation, etc) Why should someone have to recipricate to appreciate the hachnasos orchim that others do for them?

Maybe they are expressing how much the mitzva is a help for themselves?

You have no clue what goes on in the homes of others, even if you are 100% sure.

Last edited by sky on Fri, May 06 2011, 10:33 am; edited 1 time in total

amother

Fri, May 06 2011, 10:32 am

This is addressed to all the people who complain about hosting or complain about any of your guests not helping:

Then please don't call what you do "hachnasas orchim." Call it hosting.

I have seen and heard the guest/host debate raging for years, and it pops up regularly in the magazines. The list of expectations of a "good guest" include serving, clearing, babysitting, and washing dishes - some even say to come beforehand to help cook the food! Oh, and bring a gift as well.

When I'm a guest that's what I do (except helping cook beforehand, which I never even heard of). But I DO have a problem with calling it hachnasas orchim when the above is expected of the guest - and if they fail, you'll soon be reading about it in a story in Mishpacha magazine!

Why do I say shouldn't we call it hachnasas orchim? Hachnasas orchim is a mitzvah, personified by Avraham Avinu. Imagine if he had kept his tent closed, but when asked 10 times allowed the malachim to come in as guests. But they better have brought a gift! And why aren't they helping shecht and cook? Why aren't they serving? Why aren't they clearing? Imagine if he had made them wash the dishes! Well, they couldn't have babysat as he did not yet have children, but imagine if that were on the list - take the kids to the park please! Entertain the kids so I can wash the floor please!

Now I am not at all belittling Israeli hosts. I have hosted and I know it is a lot of work. I was myself a guest while in seminary, because the seminary forced us out like everyone else. I didn't want to be a guest any more than they wanted to host me. But I do have a problem calling it "hachasas orchim" when the above expectations are in place. Call it hosting.

Yes, you are extending yourself, and it is a mitzvah to that extent. But if we don't call conservative Jews Shabbos-observant because they b'davka drive to shul on Shabbos, let's not call hosting a guest with a laundry list of expectations from that guest "hachnasas orchim." Hachnasas orchim is the name of a mitzvah, and the mitzvah has parameters. If those parameters are being breached, than it's no longer that mitzvah, or is at best an imperfect mitzvah. You know, the kind that makes "broken angels" like when you mumble a bracha. So don't call it hachnasas orchim - call it hosting.

In my house, just as I was brought up to be a good guest by doing the above (except for helping cook - that's a new one for me, I never heard that before). I was also taught to be a gracious hostess. A guest in our home was treated as royalty - served hand and foot. No, they should not get up from the table to help serve - my parents would have been horrified! And if they had washed our dishes, my parents would have fainted before allowing it. A guest is a guest, and we are there to serve them, finished. That's hachasas orchim! In my own home, I don't allow ladies to help serve either. They're my guests just as much as their husbands are!

I know that when you have several guests every week it's hard to do this. So if it's a choice between not hosting at all vs. hosting with the need for help from your guests, go ahead and host with the laundry list of expectations! I'm not at ALL bashing the host families if they need this assistance - but I do oppose calling it by the name of a specific mitzvah which, due to the difficulty, the family is unable to properly keep. I'm just asking that we call it hosting and not hachnasas orchim. Call it hosting. Just don't use a term which refers to a mitzvah to describe this system which is based on the expectation of the guest earning their keep by offsetting the cost and labor of hosting them.

And please don't reply that you "don't expect" the guest to do these things but keep writing that they should do so to benefit them by teaching them how to be good guests. Because if you didn't really expect it, you wouldn't be complaining about it when it doesn't happen. People only complain when expectations are not met - which proves you had expectations in the first place.

P.S. While you should definitely host guests even if you are unable to fulfill the full mitzvah, it's also a mitzvah to please STOP hosting guests if you will offer them urine-stained bedding, if you will be so angry that there are guests that you refuse to speak to them even to look at or greet them when they arrive, if your husband screams at the family like a monster, if you will yell at the guest for washing the dishes the "wrong" way, if you will pick apart the guest to get her interesting life story and not take no for an answer, or if your husband does not always act, um, appropriately to young, single female guests. (That happened to my friend in sem! Thankfully he didn't "do" anything, but she spent the whole Shabbos trying to stay away from him because he was so "friendly" - even in front of his wife!)

amme

Fri, May 06 2011, 10:41 am

amother wrote:

well said! that is exactly how I feel!

shoshina

Fri, May 06 2011, 10:44 am

Amother, I agree with you that there are a laundry lists of complaints...but I think a lot of these have to do less with expectations because they are guests, and more with expectations of MANNERS because they are ADULTS.

I'm with you-- a guest in our house (I hope they would agree) is treated royally. The bedding is fresh, the towels are fluffy, I have fresh flowers in their bedroom (and because of a helpful thread on imamother I have a wig head there now too) and its extremely clean. I do not expect these particular guests to do anything but be amusing conversationalists, and I've known them for 10+ years so it should be easy as pie.

However.

Is expecting a parent to have control of Their Own Child the same as babysitting? Is the mitzva lost if I wish a mother (even a guest) would prevent her child from smearing his chocolate covered hands on my walls? What about leaving those urine soaked sheets on my guest bed? I don't *expect* a gift, but just as your mother would faint if a guest scraped a plate, MY mother would faint if I arrived as a guest empty handed. I don't feel like the expectations are especially high, just that your Shabbos hosts be treated like people, and Shabbos away is not an excuse to lower your standards of behavior.

sky

Fri, May 06 2011, 10:49 am

I really agreed with what you wrote. I don't think expecting people to take care of their children and leaving your house how they found it is what the long amother was talking about.

But this I don't agree with.

shoshina wrote:

MY mother would faint if I arrived as a guest empty handed. I don't feel like the expectations are especially high, just that your Shabbos hosts be treated like people, and Shabbos away is not an excuse to lower your standards of behavior.

I don't like my guests to bring me gifts. And if they do I make them promise not to the next time they come. (Besides for the fact that it makes me feel bad I probably don't need what you bring me or we don't drink that bottle of wine and it will just make me feel uncomfortable)
So please don't make people think its a requirement to bring a gift, because for many it is not.

HindaRochel

Fri, May 06 2011, 10:50 am

amother wrote:

I don't know why the husbands can't also help and yes I do help and no I don't host often because I don't have money but when I do I don't expect more from my female guests then male guests and I try and make them as welcome as possible with what I have.

shoshina

Fri, May 06 2011, 11:00 am

Sky,

I don't think it is a requirement to bring a gift (apologies if anyone got that impression) just that it is a requirement for MYSELF because I really do think my mother would faint.

I think people should put thought into their Shabbos gifts (I.e. if you are bringing flowers, have them sent AHEAD so they don't sit in an empty vase all weekend, or bring them in a vase already full of water) and not bring things that are really going to sit. If I can't think of anything personal or thougthful, it's a fruit basket, because everyone eats fruit.

Inspired

Fri, May 06 2011, 11:05 am

Is it terrible that I do appreciate and expect help serving soup? I don't have a soup tureen and I hate having to both ladle out the soup and bring it in. I feel like it wastes time and makes people wait too long from first to last person served. Other than that and normal good manners I don't mind if guests don't help. I certainly don't expect them to help cook or take care of my kids. Although if I host friends/ adopted family, etc. (which I don't think of as hachnasas orchim really) I enjoy if they hang out with me on erev shabbos and stuff. If I am having a group coming from yerushalayim and they offer I sometimes ask for something I can't get here. I asked the group of bachrim we hosted on shabbos chanukah to bring me the Ami mag and some good doughnuts for my kids. Did I lose my schar for the mitzva of hachnasas orchim?

HindaRochel

Fri, May 06 2011, 11:07 am

Inspired wrote:

Is it terrible that I do appreciate and expect help serving soup? I don't have a soup tureen and I hate having to both ladle out the soup and bring it in. I feel like it wastes time and makes people wait too long from first to last person served. to bring me the Ami mag and some good doughnuts for my kids. Did I lose my schar for the mitzva of hachnasas orchim?

I don't think it is terrible, but what about the dh and kids doing that?

amme

Fri, May 06 2011, 11:21 am

I always help out when I am a guest but sometimes I wonder how come the husbands just sit on their buts during the meal. when we have guests I always have my husband help me so the guests can sit and relax.

Inspired

Fri, May 06 2011, 11:21 am

HindaRochel wrote:

Inspired wrote:

Is it terrible that I do appreciate and expect help serving soup? I don't have a soup tureen and I hate having to both ladle out the soup and bring it in. I feel like it wastes time and makes people wait too long from first to last person served. to bring me the Ami mag and some good doughnuts for my kids. Did I lose my schar for the mitzva of hachnasas orchim?

I don't think it is terrible, but what about the dh and kids doing that?

My husband's physical limitations don't allow him to do that. I don't let children carry full bowls of hot soup. When older children are around they help. They aren't always around.

Raisin

Fri, May 06 2011, 11:28 am

I don't expect help but almost EVERYONE offers. My kitchen and dining table are in the same room so everyone can see my working hard. Should I refuse them? I enjoy helping when I am a guest - for goodness sake, I haven't had to cook and shop for shabbos, why shouldn't I let my hostess sit down while I cut some salad?

People like to give. I know I feel insulted when my help is refused LOL

it doesn't bother me that much when no one offers to help, I am sure I have been just as thoughtless in my youth.

Very very rarely has a guest ever offered to look after my kids. if they do, I assume they are type to enjoy kids.

Also, I do think it is different when I have invited a local family or individual or some backpackers have invited themselves over for a hot meal. (although both offer to help)

I do try and have as much done beforehand so I don't look too overwhelmed.

ROFL

Fri, May 06 2011, 11:35 am

I think thete is a difference between having freinds and family over. That is nice but not hachnsoses orchaim. To me the mitzvah is for people who need to have a meal or they are sitting home alone or for people that can not manage otherwise. Or someone who has a family issue - births or other things -and needs help.
Freinds genrally help. Orchaim don't. We try treat them royally with kavod.

chocolate moose

Fri, May 06 2011, 11:38 am

I think because Shabbos comes every single week, hosting or whatever you want to call it, has to be .. for lack of a better word, downgraded.

You aren't at a paid hotel. You're in someone's home, who probably is overworked, underpaid, and is entitled to some Shabbos menucha too.

And our Shabbos meals are pretty elaborate; you need fish and meat (let's not argue the menu). You have several courses and all the kids are home, too.

I don't think you can compare a Shabbos meal at a host to a meal in a restaurant or going to a hotel.

Liba

Fri, May 06 2011, 11:38 am

You did hachnasas orchim once you said "hello!" to your guests.

Mrs.K

Fri, May 06 2011, 11:40 am

We have my husband's student's over almost every week and honestly....I HATE when they help. My kitchen isn't huge and having to make awkward conversation with them ("So....whatcha learnin?") is so uncomfortable. When they boys offer to help I always just say, "Oh no thanks, relax and enjoy the meal!'

Inspired, I don't have a tureen either. The kids are too young to handle hot soup and I only ask my husband to help when it's absolutely necessary because he's sort of the glue that's holding the meal together. But like you, I hate that the first person is finished their soup by the time the last person is getting his bowl, so I ladle out all the bowls on the kitchen counter and THEN bring them all in one by one. Problem solved!