Why are you posting about how great hachnasas orchim is...

kitov

Fri, May 06 2011, 9:32 am

Mrs.K wrote:

We have my husband's student's over almost every week and honestly....I HATE when they help. My kitchen isn't huge and having to make awkward conversation with them ("So....whatcha learnin?") is so uncomfortable. When they boys offer to help I always just say, "Oh no thanks, relax and enjoy the meal!'

Inspired, I don't have a tureen either. The kids are too young to handle hot soup and I only ask my husband to help when it's absolutely necessary because he's sort of the glue that's holding the meal together. But like you, I hate that the first person is finished their soup by the time the last person is getting his bowl, so I ladle out all the bowls on the kitchen counter and THEN bring them all in one by one. Problem solved!

Or I use a tray or a wheeled cart so I can carry them ALL in at once.

Chavelamomela

Fri, May 06 2011, 11:32 am

Inspired wrote:

HindaRochel wrote:

Inspired wrote:

Is it terrible that I do appreciate and expect help serving soup? I don't have a soup tureen and I hate having to both ladle out the soup and bring it in. I feel like it wastes time and makes people wait too long from first to last person served. to bring me the Ami mag and some good doughnuts for my kids. Did I lose my schar for the mitzva of hachnasas orchim?

I don't think it is terrible, but what about the dh and kids doing that?

My husband's physical limitations don't allow him to do that. I don't let children carry full bowls of hot soup. When older children are around they help. They aren't always around.

Inspired, like you I have a DH with physical limitations, so yes, he sits in his seat the entire meal and I am the one who brings things. The hardest meals for me are when it's just our family - I can ask my 6 y.o. ds to help, but I worry about him bringing hot bowls of soup, and he can't carry heavy dishes. The 1.5 y.o. ds cannot help, and often needs me during meals too, so it's a challenge to get everyone EVERYTHING while also having a meal where I can sit.

But when guests come, I am not shy about asking for help. DH likes to use a specific chair for his seat that is not a DR chair, because its better for his back (it normally sits nearby in the LR area). So when the guests arrive, I'll often ask the man to please move the chair to my DH's spot. And as for serving help, I'll also state "please help me carry this" if they don't already automatically get up to help.

People can be taught to help, men or women. If they don't do it automatically, you can state specifically what you need. People will help, even if they didn't immediately jump to do so without your asking.

I used to insist that guests needed to be by me 3x before they can help, but since DH doesn't help me since his accident caused his injuries, I have abolished this rule and gladly welcome, appreciate, and encourage help!

When you have a situation like mine, where our family sometimes needs a lot of help, you learn to become really good at asking for help - and very specific.

mo5

Sat, May 07 2011, 4:20 am

What's wrong with letting people help? I have guests every Shabbos and sometimes for both meals.
When someone offers, I (almost always) say yes.
It makes hosting (I'll use That word) in genral a little bit easier.
After my seder of many people, one woman offerred to help me wash up, her kids and husband helped my husband and kids clean up the dining room. I appreciated that more than the flowers people sent me.
Was I not doing hachnosas orchim by having her family over for the seder when they had nowhere else to be?

HindaRochel

Sat, May 07 2011, 10:28 am

I apologize Inspired, I had forgotten about your dh's infirmities.
We have a big white bowl I use as tureen...it wasn't so expensive and that might work. The other thing I've done is use a second pot...I assume the problem is that you want a kli sheini so that you can put in stuff?

In terms of children, use a tray and even a young child can help that way.
But as I said there is nothing wrong with asking for help.

Tablepoetry

Sat, May 07 2011, 11:15 am

HindaRochel wrote:

amother wrote:

I'm irked by a post on the recent hachnasas orchim thread.

Please think carefully about whether you should be posting about how great hachnasas orchim is, when you yourself almost never host. When someone hosts you, do you sit and let your hostess clear the table, while you chat with the husbands? Do you go to other families multiple times but never issue a reciprocal invite? Do you actively hint for invites on Facebook? Then please, think twice before posting about what an amazing thing hachnasas orchim is!

I don't want to get too specific here. I'm just saying that there's a disconnect between your ideals and your reality, and maybe you shouldn't be posting telling other people what their attitude should be.

I don't know why the husbands can't also help and yes I do help and no I don't host often because I don't have money but when I do I don't expect more from my female guests then male guests and I try and make them as welcome as possible with what I have.

This - I don't expect more from the women than from the men, and I DEFINITELY expect my dh to help serve (as well as older kids) before I'd have the guests get up. (eta - of course some men/women can't help because of disabilites, that goes without saying).

But I don't call most of my hosting hachnasat orchim. I invite most people because I enjoy their company.

There are a few souls that I invite more often than I would otherwise, and whose company I don't necessarily seek out, but who really really need the invite for various reasons, be it for the food or for an evening in a normal (OK, semi-normal) household. That I call hachnasat orchim - when I do it for them, and not for me.

FTR, most of my guests are polite, offering to help serve, offering to help clear.

freidasima

Sat, May 07 2011, 11:45 am

Look, maybe one should define what exactly the mitzva of hachnosas orchim IS. What does it entail?

If we are learning from Avrohom Ovinu, then I also expect my guests to act like the malochim, KWIM?
And if they don't, then what?

Now let's pick it apart. Avrohom was rich. Does that mean that I am supposed to give what he gave? My best steak? What if I'm not rich. Do I have to give them a steak still?

Avrohom had servants. He ran and served and schechted and everything and that means that he was away from his guests. Who was entertaining them? It takes time to do all of this. Like hours. Do we have the full story? Were his servants entertaining them at the time? Do we have servants to entertain? True according to midrash he was three days after mila. But maybe he had a high pain threshhold, did anyone check that one? Does that mean that three days after birth a woman should go shecht a cow for her guests?

So before we learn perek posuk from Avrohom Ovinu either let's get all the details that we didn't get in the story or....Let's get real.

From what I was taught hachnosas orchim means opening your house, offering food and a bed.
And it means using your sechel.

If you are offering a urine stained bed to a person whose other choice was to sleep in the gutter, it's better than that. If you are offering it to someone who expected a fluffy clean bed it's another thing.

Another issue. This isn't zedoko. You aren't expected to host the person to the level he/she is used to as in zedoko. This is hachnosas orchim.

So yes we do have "expectations" from guests. First, not to be the guests from hell. Not to make crazy demands, to have decent manners and if you see your hostess in need of help, to at least offer.

That's the name of the game. Good manners. Because as Liba said, according to one deah by opening your door and greeting your guests you have already been mekayem the mitzva.

Tablepoetry

Sat, May 07 2011, 12:55 pm

Liba wrote:

Tsiggelle, my dh brings the pot to the table so I can serve, but some people don't think it is kovadig and you need someone strong and able bodied to carry the pot if it is full and heavy.

Why wouldn't it be 'kovadig' for a dh to help his wife with a heavy pot of soup???? I can understand some people would object to having the dh do all the serving (not that I agree with them at all, but I can understand the concept) --- but for the life of me, I can't fathom why it would be beneath a husband to help his wife carry something heavy.

kalsee

Sat, May 07 2011, 1:04 pm

Tablepoetry wrote:

Liba wrote:

Tsiggelle, my dh brings the pot to the table so I can serve, but some people don't think it is kovadig and you need someone strong and able bodied to carry the pot if it is full and heavy.

she means to bring a pot to the shabbos table.

amother

Sat, May 07 2011, 1:24 pm

I just want to say for the record that DH and I were in real bad shape right after we got married. We were stuck with tremendous wedding debts that his family were supposed to pay and didnt... and had to use all our gifts to cover only a part of the costs. For the first year of our marriage we had no guests whatsoever and were consistent guests at my distant cousins house, though felt super uncomfortable. We had to walk really far also in order to get there and I was pregnant and it was our only means of doing Shabbat!!
When we got stable we started doing lots of hachnasat orchim and I dont expect anything from my guests except to eat lots of my food Very Happy

I think also lots of people dont know how to be "good guests" and especially if they are not regulars they may feel awkward. We do have a regular old couple that comes and it saves their shalom bayis they tell us!

Sometimes Im not feeling well or Ive had too many guests consecutively so I just say no not this time! We are rarely invited but who cares! I DONT GIVE IN ORDER TO RECIEVE!! Pray for it or go out to a hotel if you want to be served once in a while Very Happy

freidasima

Sat, May 07 2011, 1:26 pm

We usually don't bring pots to the shabbos table unless they are the kind that are meant to be cooked in and served from in public like fancy corning ware. However the few times that it was just my husband and myself, if I wasn't feeling well we did it only to save later on the washing up. But never soup pots, ever ever, the kitchen is three steps from the table so that's no problem and we sure aren't about to eat soup from the pot!

Isramom8

Sat, May 07 2011, 1:36 pm

Soup ideas:

Ask regular guests who always bring flowers to save up for an inexpensive soup tureen instead.
Serve a thick soup that young kids can carry.
Don't serve soup. Substitute with more salads or side dishes.
Serve cold soup, like fruit soup.

I like Chavala's idea of asking for specific help. Maybe one can start with, "Who wants to help me serve now?" and if that doesn't work, switch to, "Yanky and Dovy, I'm appointing you to carry in the soup. Stand right here and take each bowl after I fill it. Thanks. Give this one to my husband. Give this one to Miriam."

r_ch

Sat, May 07 2011, 5:04 pm

Very well put!
I've been thinking about that thread and am happy to see you posting exactly my thoughts. Thank you. I was taught, that hachnasas orchim is whenever you have a guest who need a place to stay and food to eat. There are stories of tzadikim, who were giving the place to the people the others weren't even looking at, because they were filthy and not pleasant.

I was taught, that just receiving a couple of friends for a nice atmosphere on shabos is not the mitzvah, but just a nice atmosphere for yourself.
I personally had an experience with the hosts, who used to despise me for being their guest without a set of linen of my own, who didn't wait for me with the kidush, etc. It's all so contradictory to the mitzvah, yes.

At the same time, it's not easy to generalize, because I do want to hope, that it's just a minority of those who provide the hosting and expect something from their guests. Or we just didn't understand them right.

tzipp

Sat, May 07 2011, 8:19 pm

It's nice if guest help out a bit during the meal, with some serving, or with clearing up a bit. Even taking two things off the table, and it's ok to ask for that. More then that it's kinda rude of the host to demand. No guests washing dishes for sure. (Unless they are good freinds or family)

I am of the belief that a nice thank you, is just as good as a gift, and though I will give a gift sometimes, the idea of it being expected makes me uncomfortable. I almost would rather not eat somewhere where my company is wanted dependant on a gift. I almost alawys offer the bring or make something for the meal.

6yeladim

Sun, May 08 2011, 12:11 am

I think I am the one who first posted about bringing linens.
For the record, I don't ask every guest to bring linens nor do I expect people to offer. I don't ask my kids' teenage friends to bring linens, either. If a sem girl offered to bring them, I would say yes, which is why I suggested mentioning that to your daughters. My SIL always offers to bring linens, and we do the same when we go to them. We also each bring two or three dishes. This makes it more fun and easier to host when the work is shared.
I brought up the linens because people should be aware that it's an issue and that some hosts would appreciate it.
There are different kinds of guests. Single, married, young, old, financially well off or not, with small children or not, coming in a car or by public transport, for a meal or the whole Shabbat, and frankly, with or without social skills. Some people are invited because it's a real mitzvah and you just know it will be one-sided. That's okay too.
In any case I have no expectations, certainly not the first time, and I don't need or want a gift.
If someone makes negative comments about my kids or the food, or asks rude questions, or dominates the conversation, or expects a lot of undivided attention (the whole Shabbat), I am less likely to invite them back.
If you offer to sweep the floor on Friday afternoon you are more likely to get invited back. I think it's important for guests --especially our children--to be aware of these things and it does not mean the hachnasat orchim or hosting, whichever you call it, has less value. It doesn't mean that you EXPECT all of these things. I do not ask guests to sweep, serve, babysit, clear, or remove their sheets from their beds, unless they are relatives, a frequent guest, or make what I interpret to be a genuine offer. Anyway, I have teenagers so I am happy to have the guests sit.
Theoretical question: If I can host four sem girls in two weeks instead of two because I wasn't still catching up with the laundry, is that less of a mitzvah?

All in all there is a middle ground between being gracious and being a martyr.