Bus thread spin off

amother

Tue, Jul 05 2011, 1:16 pm

I did not grow up frum, so I really don't know. In the world I grew up in, respectful men gave up their seat (be it on a bus, crowded waiting room or wherever) for a woman. Always. She didn't have to be pregnant or old. Is this a very un-Jewish way of thinking?

I'm just pretty surprised that the OP of that thread would even have to be in a situation where she had to decide if she should sit next to this man or not. If he saw she was looking for a place to sit (maybe he didn't, maybe he was reading or staring out the window) and he knew he'd be uncomfortable if she sat next to him, why on earth (unless he had medical issues - again, possible, we don't know) would he not just give up his seat?

If I got on a full bus and no man got up for me I would be so offended by the rudeness, but perhaps I just don't understand the culture. So again, is the idea of a man being courteous in this way un-Jewish???

sv9506

Tue, Jul 05 2011, 2:03 pm

He probably was not paying attention to her at all and therefore did not notice that she was looking for a seat. Also since there was a seat available (that she did not notice) he might have figured that she could just sit there. Then again even if he did notice her I am not so sure that he would have gotten up.

As an aside - it is not a specific un-Jewish thing to get up for women. I think that in these times people have not been brought up right. I am currently expecting and you can CLEARLY see my belly and there are plenty of times that I have to stand on the train (live in NY) and nobody gets up for me.

BrochoP

Tue, Jul 05 2011, 6:07 pm

I haven't had a man stand up for me either, or try to.
I have offered to stand up for an older frum man and been declined, but that was when it looked like any possible available seats were next to women, including mine. I somehow still felt I should offer though, as mine was closest, but not sure if it was really the right thing or not.
I do remember clearly the sense of relief I felt when I first got *off* a bus at the same time as a frum man and he didn't debate over me stepping back for him to go first....Other times I've had what felt like a clash between what is expected by chivalry and what I understand is dictated by halacha, with men wanting to let the lady dismount first even though it meant walking ahead of them through the bus doors while stepping down, not really comfortable!

Ruchel

Wed, Jul 06 2011, 4:30 am

Seraph wrote:

Chauvanism is distinctly non Jewish. Its disrespectful towards women, being patronizing, saying "You're weak, we need to protect you". Men standing up for women just because she is a woman and for no other reason is patronizing and chauvanistic and isn't how I'll be raising my kids.

All the opposite in my world!
Good manners, VERY mentschlish, very respectful, and science true (barring exceptions)! Will absolutely teach to my kids Smile

Raisin

Wed, Jul 06 2011, 5:38 am

Seraph wrote:

but standing up for an older or sick person is certainly a Jewish value. So a healthy teenager should be taught to stand up for an older man or woman, or someone who may be pregnant.

ally

Wed, Jul 06 2011, 5:47 am

Seraph wrote:

Chauvinism is not Jewish but tradition gender roles are.
So we continuosly harp on about how women's bodies (and therefore minds) are not like the men but we don't really see women as a weaker relations when it comes to men being chivalrous about it?

Lose-Lose for the women for a change.

Seraph

Wed, Jul 06 2011, 6:13 am

Raisin wrote:

Seraph wrote:

but standing up for an older or sick person is certainly a Jewish value. So a healthy teenager should be taught to stand up for an older man or woman

Absolutely. But makes no difference whether its a man or a woman.

Quote:

, or someone who may be pregnant.

No. May? Silly. May as well stand up for everyone who may be sick. May be exhausted. May have a sprained ankle. May have a headache.

Seraph

Wed, Jul 06 2011, 6:16 am

ally wrote:

Seraph wrote:

Judaism does not see women as inferior. It sees women as different, but that doesnt mean inferior. Chauvanism and chivalry views women as inferior and in need of assistance because she is a woman and not a man.

ora_43

Wed, Jul 06 2011, 6:23 am

I agree with ally.

I don't see anything wrong with saying that as the physically stronger s-x (and for some psychological reasons as well), men are the ones who should be expected to do a variety of things - be primarily responsible for financial support, go out to war when necessary, and yes, be the first to give up their seats on the bus.

I'm also fine with gender roles for women. Frum society (and traditional non-Jewish society) tends to see women as bearing primary responsibility for the family and the home.

That said - primary responsibility doesn't mean that's the only option. A couple can agree together that the man won't work, that the woman won't be home with the kids or won't do the housework, and society as a whole can decide that men aren't needed for the army right now.

Along the same lines, at a time and place where men are seen as more or less equally strong, I wouldn't think a man is rude for keeping his seat when a woman is standing. I think some men in those societies (including both America and Israel) would actually be afraid to give up their seats; they would be concerned that the woman would think he's saying she's weak and would be offended.

Tablepoetry

Wed, Jul 06 2011, 6:55 am

ora_43 wrote:

This. Society - at least in Israel - is such that the norm is now that a man does NOT get up for a young, healthy, not obviously pregnant woman. In fact, most women might be offended, as if the man is saying they are old or frail or something.
That's not to say I'm against chivalry - just stating current norms.

ally

Wed, Jul 06 2011, 6:59 am

Seraph wrote:

ally wrote:

Seraph wrote:

Is weaker inferior? Or is it just a physical reality? What is wrong with 'protecting a weaker relations'.
And IIRC, Yakov sent the women and children to the back when he prepared to confront Esav. Is that not "chivalry"?

Seraph

Wed, Jul 06 2011, 7:16 am

ally wrote:

Seraph wrote:

ally wrote:

Seraph wrote:

There's different types of physical strength. Men in general, might have stronger upper arm muscles, etc... and might have an easier time carrying heavier things, and are able to build muscle mass more easily, etc... And that is why they fight wars, because they have that type of physical strength in greater abundance.
But that doesn't necessarily equate to being more physically equipped to stand on a long bus ride, for example.

I guess this idea of people doing something for me merely because I'm a woman bugs me, because I happen to be a very big and strong woman, probably physically stronger than many men, and if a puny man would insist on standing up for me, or carrying something that I'm carrying, because obviously I'm incapable and can't manage merely because I'm a woman, I'd find that offensive.

ETA: Regarding sending women to the back so they dont need to fight in a war, its also because women were raising kids and were pregnant, nursing, and if they died in the war, the kids would die as well, etc... and there wouldn't be continuation of the people. Thats why women didnt fight in wars, not necessarily because of physical inferiority.

For the record, there were quite a few famous warrior women and warrior tribes in history. Women arent physically incapable of fighting wars.

willow

Wed, Jul 06 2011, 8:59 am

Ruchel wrote:

Seraph wrote:

All the opposite in my world!
Good manners, VERY mentschlish, very respectful, and science true (barring exceptions)! Will absolutely teach to my kids Smile

Hear hear!!!!!!!!!!!
I agree with ora. Even though I am probably stronger then a lot of men I don't mind getting respect! I like being a women why sereph are you offended by that?
Yes there is a crossover but you can not argue that men generally have certain traits and women other. There is a reason we have babies and men fight wars as Ora so ably wrote.

Seraph

Wed, Jul 06 2011, 10:28 am

willow wrote:

Ruchel wrote:

Seraph wrote:

All the opposite in my world!
Good manners, VERY mentschlish, very respectful, and science true (barring exceptions)! Will absolutely teach to my kids Smile

Hear hear!!!!!!!!!!!
I agree with ora. Even though I am probably stronger then a lot of men I don't mind getting respect! I like being a women why sereph are you offended by that?

How is it "respect" when someone implies you are incapable because you're a woman?

amother

Wed, Jul 06 2011, 10:35 am

Seraph wrote:

I was always told that the reason that the Ketuba is one sided is because women are weaker, especially socially, and that's why they need to be protected and respected.

shoshina

Wed, Jul 06 2011, 10:52 am

Its not a "you are the weaker relations therefore you CANNOT stand" it is "you are regal/special as a (Jewish) Woman and so you should not HAVE to stand"

I said in the previous post that men (although, come to think of it, never frum) give me their seats frequently on the metro. I'm not old, or weak-looking, or pregnant, or pregnant-looking, so they're not giving it to me because they think I cannot stand, but because their parents raised them that a woman SHOULD not stand when men are seated. That is also how my sons will be raised.