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Forum
-> Working Women
shoshina
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 Thu, Jul 14 2011, 10:00 am
| chocolate moose wrote: | I DO think you are making more of it than it is.
There are many reasons for tsnius. But in some instances the rules don't apply. As I said.
Mikvah. Hospital. Exercise. Etc.
Those activities have their own rules. |
I guess I just don't see that the rules don't apply, so much as that the rules are different. Mikvah...we're naked because we are commanded to be so to perform a mitzvah, childbirth, another mitzvah, Exercise...well, I for one wear a skirt and leggings but perhaps different Ravs say differently. The beach? To perform the mitzvah of sunbathing that I somehow never learned about?
I, speaking only for myself and no one else, was taught that tsnius is dressing and BEING a dignified Bas Melech at all times. That means times when we're at home, times when we're at the beach, times when we're representing ourselves and our family and our community. Maybe its just a different standard.
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chocolate moose
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Thu, Jul 14 2011, 10:04 am
Does a Dignified Bas Melech shlep home her own groceries and wash her own floors?
I guess I'm not a DBM, then.
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chocolate moose
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Thu, Jul 14 2011, 10:10 am
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And - do you wear a double head covering, full tights and a blouse with a blazer on top? Or are the standards different in your house, as compared to being in public ?
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shoshina
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Thu, Jul 14 2011, 10:15 am
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Actually, I never wear a double head covering, blouse with blazer etc, because that's not the rules of tsnius as I learned them. I cover from collarbones to below the knee, below the elbows, and my hair. I do that while shlepping groceries (I get groceries on the way home from work, I am one well-dressed shopper!) and to scrub the floors I wear a long cotton skirt and a below the elbow tee shirt, usually with a tichel. I would go out of the house in what I scrub the floors in.
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Ruchel
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Thu, Jul 14 2011, 10:16 am
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Tznius bathing suits for children are sorely missing.
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BetsyTacy
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Thu, Jul 14 2011, 10:19 am
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Thank you Shoshina! I'm with you! I'm glad I'm not the only MO who thinks that whatever your Rav said to cover (in public) , you should cover. Even at the gyno, why should I take my tichel off? Is the gyno examining my head?
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shoshina
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Thu, Jul 14 2011, 10:26 am
| Ruchel wrote: | | Tznius bathing suits for children are sorely missing. |
Ruchel do they have Rash Guard in France? Its long sleeved shirts made out of bathing suit material that have a high SPF. That is what the little girls at the pool seem to wear, along with a bathing suit bottom and a little sport skirt. The moms wear a version of it too (looks MUCH cuter on the little ones)
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Ruchel
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Thu, Jul 14 2011, 10:30 am
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Sport skirt in real cloth? I think that would be too heavy to swim when wet?
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sima
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Thu, Jul 14 2011, 10:32 am
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this is capturing my interest now,as I was always confused by this type of dilemma. I dress tzniut and when going to the beach or pool I'll wear shorts over my bathing suit and a tshirt and a bandana with the rest of my hair in a tight bun at the nape of my neck. obviously I'm showing much more than I do when I'm dressed but for the beach I feel it's ok. gym I wear loose sweat pants and a long tee, same hair covering (mixed gym). I feel that I always have to be tzniut in this manner even if there are no Jews around since after-all I have the responsibility to Hashem to be appropriate. So as I understand from some of the comments here it's ok to be totally lax if no jews around that stikes me as very strange. I have some friends very frum folks with sheitals etc. who when they go to the beach or miami uncover their hair completely and wear pants and bathing suits, believe me I was shocked!! it doesn't make sense to me. only be tzniut when you are in your community and people see you???? just trying to understand since I am learning more and more about different halachot, but this strikes me as very strange
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amother
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Thu, Jul 14 2011, 10:35 am
CM, thanks for the sources! I looked them up in R' Falk's sefer and am a bit confused as to the conclusions that you're drawing.
1) non-frum Jews: the paragraph that you directed me to just seems to mention that behaving in a non-tznius manner can lead to aveiros. On the facing page, however (page 541, paragraph #3), R' Falk explicitly writes that "if an irreligious Jewish man is on guard, women may not use the pool, since they would cause him to transgress the issur mentioned, and they personally would transgress "lifnei iver." Even if there are many other women in the pool, it is still ossur for the woman to use the pool because each additional woman that he looks at adds to the issur." I'm not sure how this fits with what you mentioned earlier.
2) Regarding non-Jews: You are right, R' Falk says that there is no issur of "vilo sasuru" for non-Jews and hence "there is no issur for a non-Jewish man to see women in inadequate dress," but then says that "it is pritzus for a woman to swim in the presence of men even if they are non-Jewish." I confess that I don't understand why. He continues to say that a non-Jewish lifeguard is okay, but the source that he quotes (Igros Moshe Even HaEzer 4:62:1) actually concludes that a woman with yiras shamayim or the wife of a talmid chacham should nevertheless refrain from swimming in such a pool.
Since both of these are referring to lifeguards, I'm a bit puzzled as to how you derive that it is okay to dress non-tzniusly in front of a "regular" non-frum Jew or a non-Jew.
Would you mind clarifying? Thanks. 
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shoshina
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Thu, Jul 14 2011, 10:44 am
| Ruchel wrote: | | Sport skirt in real cloth? I think that would be too heavy to swim when wet? |
No its not real cloth, its like a meshy/swimsuity fabric that has shorts built in underneath. I get them from LL Bean in the U.S.
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shabbatiscoming
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Thu, Jul 14 2011, 10:46 am
| Ruchel wrote: | | Sport skirt in real cloth? I think that would be too heavy to swim when wet? | Ruchel, its something like this: http://www.solartex.com/servle.....ories
my daughter burns really easily so sh wears this.
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Ruchel
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Thu, Jul 14 2011, 11:00 am
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Like that with a skirt, it could be good!
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iluvy
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Thu, Jul 14 2011, 11:18 am
| shoshina wrote: | | chocolate moose wrote: | I DO think you are making more of it than it is.
There are many reasons for tsnius. But in some instances the rules don't apply. As I said.
Mikvah. Hospital. Exercise. Etc.
Those activities have their own rules. |
I guess I just don't see that the rules don't apply, so much as that the rules are different. Mikvah...we're naked because we are commanded to be so to perform a mitzvah, childbirth, another mitzvah, Exercise...well, I for one wear a skirt and leggings but perhaps different Ravs say differently. The beach? To perform the mitzvah of sunbathing that I somehow never learned about?
I, speaking only for myself and no one else, was taught that tsnius is dressing and BEING a dignified Bas Melech at all times. That means times when we're at home, times when we're at the beach, times when we're representing ourselves and our family and our community. Maybe its just a different standard. |
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chocolate moose
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Thu, Jul 14 2011, 3:28 pm
Look, ShoshIma, exercising is a .... concession. If you think about the dress, the music, not to mention the fact that it's mixed, the standards are certainly not the collared shirt, knee high and nude nail polish standard.
But this concession, we make for our health. I'm not sure a day off at the beach is the same thing but that's not my situation.
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shoshina
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Thu, Jul 14 2011, 3:32 pm
| chocolate moose wrote: | Look, ShoshIma, exercising is a .... concession. If you think about the dress, the music, not to mention the fact that it's mixed, the standards are certainly not the collared shirt, knee high and nude nail polish standard.
But this concession, we make for our health. I'm not sure a day off at the beach is the same thing but that's not my situation. |
I definitely think exercise is vitally important to our health, and I would never suggest anyone not do it! To work out, I wear leggings, sneakers, a very loose skirt, and a long sleeved crew neck tee shirt. I cover my hair usually with a tichel. I *do* actually wear nude nail polish because I don't paint my nails differently just to use the gym. I listen to my ipod so I don't have any music issues, and while my gym is mixed, that actually encourages me to make sure my tsnius is EXTRA careful, I am representing my community to the rest of the world (my gym isn't specifically Jewish). I don't see that the standards need to be less.
That said, I'm not judging you for what you wear to the gym, either. This is what works for me. This is what I think about tsnius and why we do it. It seems that your philosophy is closer to the interpretation that you are protecting a frum man from aveira, and so your policy of covering when you see a frum man makes good sense.
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