From a Halachic Standpoint (Levi Ahron)

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skymile

Wed, Jul 13 2011, 4:40 pm

please don't bash me and call me [crazy] or anything like that. I don't want to be anon because it doesn't "bother" me that I have this question.

my question is- are we still obligated to do pidyon shvium, dan l'kaff z'chus, etc...?

clearly everyone have VERY passionate feelings about the outcome of his trial. Don't get me wrong- I'M NOT CONDONING HIS BEHAVIOR, NOR DO I FEEL HE DESERVES THE ABOVE.

I am just curious as to what halacha has to say about the subject.

again, don't call me naive or stupid, or whatever creative names you think of. all I want to know is what God tells us to do in such a situation.

flowerpower

Wed, Jul 13 2011, 4:43 pm

When someone does something this bad he is not considered human and deserves just middah keneged middah.

Inspired

Wed, Jul 13 2011, 4:47 pm

No. There is no inyan of pidyon shvuyim. He KILLED a child. He is a danger to society, its an obligation on everyone to protect the society at large and all the CHILDREN from someone who might KILL them.
This goes for anyone who harms people according to MY rav. It is our obligation to stop people from being harmed. Al taamod al dam reacha. You don't just stand by and allow a harmful person to walk the streets.

sarahd

Wed, Jul 13 2011, 4:48 pm

Dan lechaf zechus is not a blanket, across-the-board rule. In the case of a rasha, we are NOT ALLOWED to be dan lechaf zechus.

shalhevet

Wed, Jul 13 2011, 4:55 pm

Dan lechaf zechus means assuming a regular mitzva observer didn't do an aveira if there is over a 50% chance that he didn't. Or assuming a great tzaddik didn't do an aveira if there is even a small, logical chance that he didn't.

Uh, I don't think that includes self-confessed murderers.

skymile

Wed, Jul 13 2011, 4:58 pm

shalhevet wrote:

chocolate moose

Wed, Jul 13 2011, 5:03 pm

Does anyone remember The Beltway Snipers?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B.....tacks

Note the picture of Office Charles Moose (no relation).

Anyway, one died of lethal injection and the other is serving 6 life terms in prison.

With this sort of behaviour, there is no playing around. Lawyers don't think their client is innocent or even beyond the slightest doubt not guilty.

bubby

Wed, Jul 13 2011, 5:20 pm

Whoever said string him up from a lamppost in BP gets my vote for mayor.

DLKZ??? When hell freezes over. What I heard this afternoon from a senior Shomrim member makes me cry again.

abound

Wed, Jul 13 2011, 5:20 pm

According to Halacha, he is not considered part of am Yisroel. He is not allowed to be part of a minyan, you are allowed to talk lashon hara about him etc.

Killing him according to halacah may be a problem since there wasn't 2 eidim. But since he will not run to a "ir Miklat" the family can kill him till he gets there. Either way I do not know if he gets ir miklat, I think that in the time of sanhedrin (it would not have happened) they would find a way to kill him according to halacha.

merelyme

Wed, Jul 13 2011, 5:24 pm

chocolate moose wrote:

Note the picture of Office Charles Moose (no relation).

aidelmaidel

Wed, Jul 13 2011, 5:46 pm

I think he has ZERO standing al pi halacha but I am not a Rov (I just play one on TV).

That being said, the man is clearly mentally ill (a sane person doesn't kill another). He deserves to be locked up for the rest of his life with the key DESTROYED.

If sent to prison, you can bet his life is going to be HELL ON EARTH. Most prisoners, no matter how violent their crime, have no sympathy for child killers/molesters. These types of criminals often wind up in solitary because the prison staff can't keep them "safe" otherwise.

lilacdreams

Wed, Jul 13 2011, 5:57 pm

abound wrote:

I thought oorei miklat was just if you did something be'shogeg....

ora_43

Wed, Jul 13 2011, 5:57 pm

Dan l'chaf zchut isn't an issue as previous posters said.

Pidyon shuvuyim is an interesting one. Do we need to redeem a Jew from the non-Jewish court system in order to kill him? Because that is the punishment halacha requires... It seems kind of like a waste of time, although it'd certainly send a message.

If it's a mitzva to protect a Jew from an overly harsh punishment that's not in accordance with Torah law, is it also a mitzva to protect a Jew/the Jewish community from an overly lenient punishment that's not in accordance with Torah law? I haven't heard of any protests over the issue, but that doesn't mean much.

MommyZ

Wed, Jul 13 2011, 6:04 pm

As I'm sure most of you know by now, I'm the wife of a police officer. He asked shailos about when he can arrest a frum Jew and this definitely falls under a must arrest situation. It's clear cut sakanat nefashot. This would not even warrant a shailah.

zaq

Wed, Jul 13 2011, 6:30 pm

abound wrote:

But since he will not run to a "ir Miklat" the family can kill him till he gets there. Either way I do not know if he gets ir miklat, I think that in the time of sanhedrin (it would not have happened) they would find a way to kill him according to halacha.

ir miklat was for accidental manslaughter only, not for murder. A modern example might be if a person backing up his car, didn't see the kid who ran behind it to get his ball from the street, and ran him over. However, there is no dispensation in the modern era for the goel hadam, and even if there were, it would apply only in EY. dina demalchuta dina; if the victim's family did attack and kill the murderer, they would be put on trial for murder themselves.

But executions even in times of sanhedrin were extremely rare. A beis din that executed someone once in 70 years was called a "sanhedrin kotlanit" (fatal sanhedrin)--a very bad rep to have. every effort was made not to execute on the slim chance that the beis din was mistaken and the person was not guilty. You see, the prosecution didn't "have to" win a case...If an innocent man were somehow convicted and executed, nothing would bring him back and the beis din would have his blood on their hands. OTOH, if a guilty man went free, the ultimate justice would be meted out by the KBH. This faith didn't absolve them of the obligation to follow due process, but it does explain why executions were so rare.

Have faith that the KBH will see justice done here, too, whether at the hands of the State of New York or through some other medium. I have heard that child molesters and murderers of children are considered the lowest of the low (rightly so) within prison society. Ordinary felons, your garden-variety rapists and murderers, look down on this kind of scum, and sometimes in prison...things happen.

amother

Wed, Jul 13 2011, 7:55 pm

Am I the only one who thinks it's possible the perp is nebach mentally ill & deserves our pity?

I'm not saying post bail, & the thought that they may plead insanity & put him in a facility for the mentally ill is kind of frightening in case they eventually let him out...

mummiedearest

Wed, Jul 13 2011, 8:06 pm

amother wrote:

everyone agrees he's mentally ill. that does not mean that he deserves even a drop of pity. someone who deserves pity is someone who knows he has a problem, reaches out for help, and is denied help. someone who brutally murders an innocent child deserves NO PITY whatsoever.

here's the thing: sane people don't commit murders. an insanity plea can be used for ANY murder, heck, any major crime. imo, that does not mean that the criminal is not responsible. he is 100% responsible for his own actions. period.

MaBelleVie

Wed, Jul 13 2011, 8:08 pm

amother wrote:

People who commit horrific acts don't deserve pity, mental illness or not. You can feel as sorry as you want three days ago, but no longer.

causemommysaid

Wed, Jul 13 2011, 8:14 pm

amother wrote:

he wont get out. the facility needs to prove he is not a menace to society and the prosecution needs to agree in order for a violent patient to be released from a facility.

Fabulous

Wed, Jul 13 2011, 8:16 pm

in the court system sanity does not have that much to do with mental health. Rather, did the person know at that time what he was doing was wrong? That is the definition. From all I have heard, he did. Panicking is not not knowing you did something wrong. I really don't think he will get away with that "defense"

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