From a Halachic Standpoint (Levi Ahron)

someoneoutthere

Wed, Jul 13 2011, 8:17 pm

Beis Din had a special way of dealing with murderers when there was an absence of 2 proper eidim or proper hasra'ah. It involved lashes- makas mardus- and confinement, starvation, and then they'd feed them barley and water and the guy would die from the inside out, so to speak....

Beis Din had the power to enforce civility, even when there is no specific punishment delineated in the Torah. That's what Makas Mardus- lashes for insurrection/disobedience- come into play.

About pitying the murderer- I pity his soul. It came down into this world for a higher purpose and he's done something so horrible that the only tikkun is death. What a cruel way to treat the soul G-d entrusted in you.

So, yes, there is a way to punish such people in a severe manner as befits the crime

causemommysaid

Wed, Jul 13 2011, 8:21 pm

someoneoutthere wrote:

I sure hope death is not a tikkun. I hope he goes up there and gets the maximum without parole. (eternity in hell)

someoneoutthere

Wed, Jul 13 2011, 8:37 pm

ysmommy wrote:

someoneoutthere wrote:

I sure hope death is not a tikkun. I hope he goes up there and gets the maximum without parole. (eternity in hell)

You know something, death is a tikkun. Death does not kill the soul, the divine spark within a person. Death kills the body, the vehicle for the soul to accomplish anything. But this guy sure as h*** managed to bury that spark under a lot of junk making it sorta hard to see it. And, by denying the Creator (Lo Sirtzach is the complimentary dibbur to Anochi Hashem- murder denies that there is One Above who puts people here and its not ours to try killing them) a murderer forfeits his opportunity to participate in this physical world. So he needs to die, and allow that squashed Spark of G-d to be free from the layers under which it was hidden. It's a tikkun for the SOUL, the G-dly essence that is trapped in a person who by their actions has denied that very essence. It deserves to be freed....

I don't know much about parole in Heaven or Hell, but I do know that a person can redeem themselves before their Creator even when all hope is lost in redeeming themselves before man. Yesh Koneh Olamo B'Shaa Achas (that story in gemara is actually about a murderer who did teshuva....)

amother

Wed, Jul 13 2011, 9:59 pm

I can't find it now, & who knows if it's true. But someone posted that they knew him in elementary school & he was a nebach case that nobody took care of. Of course today they'd be all over him with social skills & therapists. So who knows if he could have been saved? Or if his parents were clueless about getting him help? Or if he himself had no idea he could be helped?

I also have no idea if sociopaths are born that way or not (Bad Seed?) but that would seem to negate the concept of bechira chofshis, so I suppose he must have made bad choices along the way & could have made different ones. But his parents are surely also in pain. And he was once a cute baby...

Oy, it's just a terrible painful topic. I am just wonderin, like the poster who wondered if she was the only one feeling bad about the girl on the bike in the turned over bus, only I must be even weirder to even think about feeling bad for the alleged perp?

shosh

Thu, Jul 14 2011, 12:33 am

Though it's almost impossible to do so, take the emotion out of this and look at it for what it is.

This individual, who is a Jew, is so twisted or mentally sick (take your pick or say both) that he is a danger to society both Jewish or non-Jewish. Therefore, he needs to be removed from society and either kept in prison or in a secure mental unit for the rest of his life because no amount of therapy, I don't think, could ever rehabilitate such an individual.

If we are talking halacha, I'd like those of you married to a Rabbi to ask your dh out of interest:
- Are we supposed to believe that this person, who is the epitome of everything that is sick in our society, ever capable of doing teshuvah?
- I know that there' s no death penalty in New York, but if there was, would we be wrong as Jews to wish that this individual should be hanged/chaired just because he is a fellow Jew?

I'm just interested in the answers. How far does the concept of believing every Jew can do teshuva go?

someoneoutthere

Thu, Jul 14 2011, 1:38 am

Shosh, yes, we are supposed to believe that ANYONE is capable of doing Teshuva. What is teshuva exactly? Does it mean rehabilitation? I don't think so, not in this context. There are sins for which the only proper fix is death. But, they can still do the steps of Teshuva, namely vidui and Charata. But that teshuva is between them and G-d. I do not think that has to mean that we, as humans, have to accept that someone who acts so crazily is rehabilitated and should be let back into society. (I happen to think that we are far less willing to accept people having done proper Teshuva and changed their ways than we should be. But it's a mighty hard teshuva to do when a person has been murdered. For that, Torah says quite clearly the proper punishment is death. But the murderer can still do a complete teshuva before that death, between him and G-d.)
We have examples from the Gemara of people who did teshuva in a fashion that we could never imagine possible. Resh Lakish went from being a bandit and highway-robber to being a great Amora. There's the story of Rabbi Elazar ben Dordaya who was as immoral as could ever be and after a particular comment from a zonah, when he realized how far gone he was, he sat down and cried until his soul departed and a bas kol came out and said there is a special place for him in Olam Haba, and Rebbi said about him "Yesh koneh olamo bshaa achas".

So yes, people can do teshuva. But that teshuva does not impact their punishment for the crime at hand. And for some crimes, the punishment is severe. And lav davka does it it rehabilitate mental illness. The teshuva is between the criminal and G-d.

As for the death penalty- We do not have a Sanhedrin Gedola sitting on Har Habayis, so there is no death penalty. No, despite the fact that this is a despicable act and an excuse for a human being, I would oppose the use of a death penalty on him or the wishing that he be hanged/chaired/whatevered. Without the sanhedrin, this is not our role or way of doing things anymore. A murderer deserves death, but we cannot execute him in a formal fashion. lock him away and lose the keys, but Death is something G-d is going to have to bring on him. And I trust G-d, He'll mete out the punishment however it should come, whether immediately or in 30 years or in Olam Haba, we need to do our job to prosecute him to the fullest extent allowable by the law short of the death penalty, but life and death are in the hands of G-d Himself.

This is based on the discussions I've had with my husband and my own understandings, but I didnt' ask him specifically about this case.

Someone who has no rachmanus on an innocent child does not deserve our rachmanus, but we need to remember that a) He has a soul, somewhere under all the crud, and that soul can be redeemed by him only though I do not think that impacts sentencing or any other part of how society needs to accept him and b) That soul obligates him to live as a Jew no matter what he just did. And that means that judicial death can only be meted out by a Sanhedrin on Har Habayis.

(Just to add, that means he should put on tefillin every day, keep shabbos and kashrus properly, even in prison, and all of the other mitzvos. There's a Jewish soul trapped in there)

anonymrs

Thu, Jul 14 2011, 3:40 am

amother wrote:

I read this somewhere also. But you know what? The God who gave him a difficult childhood also commanded him not to kill people. There are plenty of people who have had a difficult childhood and they did not commit such atrocities.

sarahd

Thu, Jul 14 2011, 4:32 am

apple24 wrote:

abound wrote:

According to Halacha, he is not considered part of am Yisroel. He is not allowed to be part of a minyan, you are allowed to talk lashon hara about him etc.

Killing him according to halacah may be a problem since there wasn't 2 eidim. But since he will not run to a "ir Miklat" the family can kill him till he gets there. Either way I do not know if he gets ir miklat, I think that in the time of sanhedrin (it would not have happened) they would find a way to kill him according to halacha.

An Ir Miklat would not apply to his case. It is not for murders Bemazid, which clearly this is

Actually not. The way Arei Miklat worked was that ANY murderer could run there after committing a murder. The goel hadom could try to get him before he got there and kill him. Once he was in the Ir Miklat, the goel hadom had no right to kill him. He would then be brought to trial. If it was determined he had killed bemeizid (edim, hasraa, etc.) he would be put to death. If beshogeg, he would go back to the Ir Miklat. (I'm not sure if the goel hadom would be allowed to kill him on the way.) If he was acquitted, so then he would go free, of course.

DovDov

Thu, Jul 14 2011, 9:51 am

My understanding is that l'halacha, wherever there is a criminal who is a danger to society, it is required to let secular law deal with him, because however bais din would do differently, bais din doesn't have coercive power and we are obligated to protect the community. Even if secular law will punish more severely than Jewish law.

Also, the whole 2 eidim, could Jewish law punish at all, etc. -- there was a system of civil court is Israel too for dinei melech that worked on different rules than d'oraisa. Many people would have been punished in a true Jewish state that a d'oraisa bais din couldn't punish. And even for religious law, the bais din had all sorts of powers outside the official punishments, including starving a suspect to death.

amother

Thu, Jul 14 2011, 10:52 am

shosh wrote:

I don't know the answer to this one.

I grew up around the corner from R' Yaakov Kaminetsky. I remember my parents once discussing that R' Yaakov was opposed to the death penalty, and he advised politicians to oppose it. Because the system in the US is not in compliance with Torah, so he was opposed to the death penalty here.

But on an emotional level, I think tying him to a lamp post in BP is a great idea. Right around the corner from the Shiva home.

amother

Thu, Jul 14 2011, 10:55 am

fmt4 wrote:

I agree with you amother. I can't help but think what went so horrifically wrong in this man's life that would create a human being, and even more so a JEWISH human being, who could commit such an atrocity.

I think he should rot in jail forever, and don't think he deserves any mercy, but at the same time I think that the fact a jewish neshama could become so warped and merciless is also a horrible tragedy.

I too feel horrified that someone could grow up in a Jewish home, and go thru frum schools, and stoop so low.

At the same time, I feel no pity for him. There are unfortunately thousands of mentally ill people who fight harder against their natures, and go for help and do not commit such horrendous acts. It's insulting to them to feel sorry for this low-life.

IloveHashem613

Thu, Jul 14 2011, 11:07 am

There is a reason that the Torah says "if you show mercy to the wicked, you will show wickedness to the kind". We have ZERO obligation to show any mercy to this man just because he is a so-called "Jew". One of the defining character traits of a Jew is that he is a rachmun- that we as Jews naturally have mercy for others. This man is pure evil to the core and it seriously makes me mad that anyone would even contemplate giving this man less harsh treatment because he is a Jew. He deserves to be treated the way any black man who committed this type of crime should be treated. Its okay you can all accuse me of racism but if a black man was found to have committed this murder, no one would even think about giving him an ounce of mercy and he'd be prosecuted to the full letter of the law. This scum of the earth Levi Aron should get the same treatment. Its actually an aveira to give this man dan l'kaf zechus or show him any sort of mercy or sympathy. The Torah is there to help guide us as a society and help eachother but when there is evil in our society, we need to uproot it and remove it from our midst and this man is the epitome of such evil. The laws of Loshon Hora, pidyon shevuyim etc... DO NOT apply to such a man!!! Saying that we should show him sypmathy is the same as the leftist israelis showing sympathy to the "poor, opressed" Palestinians who teach their innocent children to blow up Jews. We should hear only good news and no more sorrow!

grin

Thu, Jul 14 2011, 11:36 am

I think that one thing that we can all try to learn form this is to act on our suspicions. Just as there is forbidden speech, there's speech that one is obligated to tell - a suspicion of child molestation is definitely one of them.

just like nobody was "minding their own business" when the search was going on and we all feel that this happened to each and every one of us, we also need to step forward with grounded suspicions we may have of seriously wrong behavior - while at the same time, emphasizing that it was merely a suspicion.

On the other hand, I think that we all need to realize that this wasn't really preventable, that it was out of anyone's hands, that it was an act of G-d.