WAY off the derech teen in the community, what to do?

FranticFrummie

Wed, Aug 24 2011, 2:25 am

There's a girl in my community who got pregnant when she was 16. She kept the baby, and has since married a non Jewish guy, but she tells everyone he's Jewish (not the baby's father, he's in jail). She's heavily tattooed and pierced, dresses trashy, and dyes her hair green. shock

She likes to hang around shul at kiddush time (never davens) to chat with the other teens. She's very friendly, outgoing and bubbly, and the other kids are getting caught up in her circle.

I think she's a dangerous influence on these kids, because the community is just barely orthodox, and these kids could go either way very easily. She's making horrible life choices, and making it look like fun, like she hasn't a care in the world. People are reluctant to shoo her away because "of course everyone wants to see her come back to observance, and after all, she's Jewish and so is her baby."

It's a really tough call, but it just kills me when I see her with younger teens, and they're hanging on her every word. What would you do? (OK, maybe not you personally, but if you were the community rabbi.)

shosh

Wed, Aug 24 2011, 4:16 am

I wouldn't worry about the other kids all absolutely bursting to dye their hair green and get pg either.

For example, my oldest dd knows a girl a year or two older than her that fell pg at 17 and had a shotgun wedding. Ok, this other girl didn't go right off the derech, and at least she married the kid's father, etc. But I'm very reassured when my dd comes to me and tells me that she would hate to have this girl's life, that she's too young for a baby, etc.

If any of these kids were really going to do what this girl is doing, they would do it anyway, with or without her! And there are probably many more who might like chatting to her but will feel relieved that they are not in her situation.

And btw, I think it's a great thing that even with all her problems, she still wants to come to shul even if not to daven and to still be a part of the community. She's young right now. But you may well see her in five years time - with her hair washed, without the [gentile] (or even with him but he may not mind her raising the child as a Jew), sending the kid to a Jewish day school, dressing more normally and keeping a few mitzvos.

Remember that this is a Jewish child, both her and her baby, and the fact that she still wants to be a Jew in some way is a wonderful thing.

amother

Wed, Aug 24 2011, 6:36 am

I THINK EVERYONE IS WAY TOO HARSH, THIS WOMAN HAS A VALID CONCERN

One can bring up a disscussion with a child about something in the news and how sad it is....
I advise never to get specific and personl and discuss her directly.

If she is being influenced by her directly - hanging out with her late at night .... then you must do all you can to keep her away from her ( I think the Chofetz Chaim says one may even make up lies about such a person)

But I think a discussion about how sad people in her situation are will do you and your child a lot of good because this is something she knows already and you can solidify these feelings in her by speaking them out....

amother

Wed, Aug 24 2011, 6:38 am

Wed, Aug 24 2011, 6:51 am

shosh wrote:

Totally agreed!

And if you are shock

ing over green hair, you are doing exactly what this young woman wants you to do.

Barbara

Wed, Aug 24 2011, 9:23 am

FranticFrummie wrote:

Maybe its a really bad sheitl.

OK, all joking aside, there aren't very many parents who want their 16 year old daughters to get pregnant and get a lot of tattoos. That has nothing to do with Jewish vs. non-Jewish, or Orthodox vs. "Barely Orthodox" (whatever that means). So I would certainly assume that these kids' parents are talking to them about the difficulties that accompany the life decisions that this young woman made.

Apart from that, what would you want anyone to do? Have the rabbi give a dvar Torah on how evil this girl is? Post security guards at the doors to turn her away, saying "sorry, we don't want your kind here? Nothing would turn her into someone to be admired more than either of those things.

Give the rabbi credit. Give the parents credit. Give the kids credit. And MYOB.

And remember, what is most notable is that this young woman is Jewish, is proud of being Jewish, is proud that her child is Jewish, and wants to be a part of the Jewish community. Don't you wish more Jews were like that?

ora_43

Wed, Aug 24 2011, 9:28 am

I think it's dangerous to say "oh, teens won't do anything they wouldn't have done anyway." We're talking about teenagers here, what their peers are doing often has an enormous effect. With teen pregnancy and the like, AFAIK the effect has even been proven in studies.

That said - I don't think that under normal circumstances there'd need to be a big concern over kids hanging out together during kiddush. The teens her age are basically adults already and hopefully have their personalities, goals in life, etc, at least somewhat set already and won't easily choose to live like her instead, while the younger teens hopefully have friends from school, activities, etc, and care more what their families and the other 14-year-olds (or whatever) are doing than what this one young woman is doing.

The question of how to integrate people who are doing assur things into the community while not validating their actions is always a tough one... but overall I think that when it comes to social stuff (as opposed to, say, giving an aliyah or appointing community leaders), it's best to go with acceptance.

Chayalle

Wed, Aug 24 2011, 10:02 am

Barbara wrote:

OK, all joking aside, there aren't very many parents who want their 16 year old daughters to get pregnant and get a lot of tattoos. That has nothing to do with Jewish vs. non-Jewish, or Orthodox vs. "Barely Orthodox" (whatever that means). So I would certainly assume that these kids' parents are talking to them about the difficulties that accompany the life decisions that this young woman made.

ITA - and many experts say that the strongest deterrant for kids who stay on the straight and narrow is when they see others whose lives have been messed up, and they are able to openly communicate their feelings with their own parents and understand that it's up to them to make better choices.

Unfortunately, every community has kids with religious challenges, and we can't isolate them (or our own kids). The best way to deal with the situation, IMVHO, is to parent our kids better - and keep the communication lines open.

ora_43

Wed, Aug 24 2011, 10:25 am

Chayalle wrote:

That seems to assume that kids will realize that the others in question have "messed up" lives. What about a case like the OP describes, in which the teen who has a kid already seems to think it's a great life, or at least act that way?

Also, in some cases using that technique tends to backfire... for example, showing/telling kids real stories of people who died or were made extremely ill by eating disorders can actually contribute to eating disorders. I think it's the kind of thing that has to be used very carefully.

Chayalle

Wed, Aug 24 2011, 10:40 am

ora_43 wrote:

Chayalle wrote:

Oh I wouldn't leave it to the kids to realize anything. I put communication in the same paragraph. I think talking to your kids about what they see and experience is very important. Answer their questions, discuss their perceptions with them, and keep your relationship with them strong and healthy to the greatest extent possible.

To a far lesser extreme - much of my family lives very differently than my lifestyle (yeshivish). My kids ask me questions about why their cousins dress with different standards, and do different activities than we do, etc....I also have standards that my girls need to keep when we are with family, even though no one else but us is doing it (for example, wearing socks. No mixed swimming. etc....) I don't isolate my kids from my family for fear that they will start being influenced; I find it to be less of a big deal, because it's not a taboo subject - we talk about it, explaining our minhag, and how are Rav paskens, etc...

zaq

Wed, Aug 24 2011, 10:42 am

I'm not about to second-guess the community rabbi. There has to be a reason why this girl is hanging out at shul, and somehow I doubt that it's for the dried-out sponge cake at the kiddush. (Unless she's destitute and really needs the food.) There are other venues where she could meet up with other teens, even on a Saturday morning, so we have to assume that she wants to maintain some sort of connection to the Jewish community. Maybe for her baby's sake.

The girl didn't get pregnant by herself. You don't know what the circumstances were. She may have been more sinned against than sinning, as the expression goes. Where are her parents in all this? Did she come from a loving home or did she look for love elsewhere and find it in the wrong place? Did she, like so many others, look for love and find secks instead? Sometimes a young girl just wants to have a boyfriend--which isn't a crime--and ends up a mother.

You're criticizing her for choosing to keep her baby? a JEWISH neshama? Am I hearing right? Better he should go to whomever?

No matter who the father was or to whom the mother is married, the baby is a full-fledged member of Am Yisrael. No matter how the mother dresses or behaves, the baby is innocent. So long as the mother doesn't do anything illegal or immoral in or in front of shul property, she has to be admitted just like any other Jew. We don't ostracize the baby because we don't like the mother's lifestyle. For that matter, we don't bar anyone from shul because we dislike their lifestyle or because they don't daven when they're there. If we did that, I daresay we'd have to bar half the Sisterhood, not to mention the entire membership of the so-called Kiddush Club and more than a few prominent members.

Far from banning the girl, as rabbi I would be studying possible paths of kiruv. I'm thinking her hanging out in shul is a cry for help. Knowing how people must be looking down on her, she may be continuing her flamboyant behavior and mode of dress to cover up her insecurities. Chances are she dearly wished she were just a regular teen again, stressing out about acne and taking the SAT's, free to go wherever and whenever, when instead she' was busy with diapers and spitup and nighttime feedings.

Didn't someone post in an earlier thread about hating the sin, not the sinner? This girl doesn't appear to have hurt anyone except herself. What is she actually doing? is she trying to get the other kids to do as she did? Is she doing drugs and inviting them to do the same? is she throwing orgies? Or is she hanging out with other kids because she wants to feel like a normal teen? With whom should she hang out? With her nonjewish husband's nonjewish friends? with other mothers who are years and years older than she is?

The only truly effective weapon against undesirable influences is strong chinuch from both school and parents. Temptation to do the wrong thing is out there, and not solely in the form of a girl who publicly flouted the rules. You don't have to clasp this girl to your bosom and invite her to live with you, but you don't have to cast her out, either. Educate your kids instead.

CatLady

Wed, Aug 24 2011, 12:02 pm

zaq, if there were an award for Post of The Day, yours would be it.

My own belief is that in most things, including degree of religious observance, part of something is better than all of nothing. The fact that the young woman in question is coming to shul and hanging around the kiddush table instead of the mall, or worse, is very telling, and it wouldn't take much to show her some acceptance. Even a simple Shabbat Shalom and a kootchy-kootchy-koo to the baby will go a long way, because she'll need the reassurance that she's still part of the community. Having been in a situation when I was vulnerable and disenfranchised from my local Jewish community because my sincere efforts to connect were never reciprocated, I can tell you that this will make all the difference in the world.