WAY off the derech teen in the community, what to do?

Dolly Welsh

Wed, Aug 24 2011, 12:12 pm

She needs to be cared about, but in a structured way. Somebody in authority has to take her case on, and let her know that: to come there at all, she has to spend fifteen minutes per visit talking to him, the Rabbi, or the Sisterhood lady who is firmly backed up by the Rabbi, and make a teensy bit of progress toward thinking their way. They MUST defend their culture somehow.

If this does not happen, and reach-out is indeed hard, she will have been abandoned. She will then have valid grievance against the synagogue, abandonment, and the congregation will start to DESERVE losing some more kids to her ways, as punishment for abandoning her. It's like the dead body found in the fields. "Who ignored this?" Chazal ask.

If the synagogue social context cannot handle her, the rabbi should make a humble phone call to the nearest Chabad, who are trained for this, and who focus specifically on difficult outreach. He should humbly ask if they can help him with this difficult case, as they are experts. The Rabbi or Sisterhood lady should make an appointment and accompany the girl in person to Chabad, so she isn't wandering into a strange place unescorted. She's not being rejected, she is being taken to a place where they can do more for her, because they are set up for that.

The food is much better at Chabad! Complete chicken dinner, not stale sponge cake. And a non-judgmental atmosphere. Should work.

If Chabad doesn't think they are the right place, they might have suggestions to make.

Her actions are a contradictory mix of asking for help and the visible defiance of continuing to dye her hair green, which costs money and time.

Yes, there is some danger. Unfortunately she is living proof, or seems to be, that you can get away with it. That is not a useful lesson for the other kids. And it is well known that misery loves company.

The green hair people have given her a home, or she would not be wearing their uniform. She needs a different home. We will know by her appearance where her allegiance is. Eventually IYH she will put modest clothes over the tattoos and sport nice hair - even a beautiful flowing synthetic sheitel. Now who has fifty dollars to buy it for her in love?

Last edited by Dolly Welsh on Wed, Aug 24 2011, 1:00 pm; edited 4 times in total

FranticFrummie

Wed, Aug 24 2011, 5:50 pm

Whoa, OK, back the truck up!

A lot of you are reading into this more than I actually said. I NEVER said that I knew all the answers, or any answers for that matter. I've known the girl and her family for 8 years, so I'm pretty intimate with the details. She's told me many of them herself. I wouldn't post if I didn't have the facts directly from her or her parents.

The community rabbi is controversial. He has a lot of tenure, but he's not generally respected. He's way more interested in politics and power than he is individuals. He's not a warm man by any stretch of the imagination, and certainly not approachable. It's a very frustrating situation, to say the least.

I don't know how "proud" this girl is to be Jewish. She goes out of her way to dress as non jewish as possible, she gave the baby a non Jewish name, the baby's father is a [gentile], and her new husband is a [gentile]. Every time I see her, she wants to show me her newest tattoo. IMHO, she's DARING people to reject her, so that when they don't she will feel loved. I'm sure it's a cry for help, no doubt about it.

I have never, EVER been unkind or cold to her or her baby. It's not in me to be cruel to anyone like that, and she doesn't deserve it. Her parents both have serious health issues, and they are at a total loss as to what to do for her. My heart breaks for them.

We have other OTD kids in the community, but they dress properly when they show up for shul. They can behave properly for a few hours, regardless of what they do the rest of their time. They are all treated with love, support and respect, because they don't throw their rebellion in people's faces.

Personally, I'd love to see her get involved with Chabad, but if she showed up the way she usually dresses, I'm sure one of the ladies would whisk her out and make her cover up. I'm not sure if she'd handle that well or not. If I lived near a Chabad I'd loan her some clothes and take her myself!

Oh, the comment about her keeping the baby was not a condemnation, it was just a statement of fact. Several women in the community offered to adopt the baby and let the girl have unlimited contact, but she refused. I respect her choice, and I have to say that the little girl is thriving. She's always well fed, nicely dressed, and extremely loved. I have no condemnation at all at so her parenting skills. I do worry, however, that the girl will not be raised Jewish, and we'll have yet another "lost generation".

Since I'm writing a novel here, I might as well tell you my life story in a nutshell. (TMI WARNING)

My mother is Jewish, and she married a Christian. Now, my dad is the nicest guy you'd ever want to meet, and I love him to pieces. Still, my mother didn't raise me Jewish, and didn't tell me anything about it. When I was drawn to Judaism, I had to study for three years, go to a Beis Din, and have a gerus l'chumra. It was a very difficult and painful process.

When I was a teen, I went through a very hard stage. No pregnancy, but drug use, promiscuous, etc. I have seven tattoos (nothing gross, just flowers and stuff), and used to have several body piercings. I dyed my hair bright purple, and dressed in very attracting clothing. I was desperate for attention, and got all the wrong types of it.

I think that this is why this girl is affecting me so much. She really likes me, because deep down we have the same emotional damage. When I see her, I'm torn between wanting to hug her, and to shake her hard and yell "You're ruining your life, get professional help!"

Wow. I can't believe I just put all that out there. Kinda therapeutic. If nothing else, just writing this has made me more inclined to reach out to her in some way. All suggestions are welcome.

If you read this whole thing, thank you!

FranticFrummie

Wed, Aug 24 2011, 7:27 pm

amother wrote:

FranticFrummie wrote:

My mother is Jewish, and she married a Christian. Now, my dad is the nicest guy you'd ever want to meet, and I love him to pieces. Still, my mother didn't raise me Jewish, and didn't tell me anything about it. When I was drawn to Judaism, I had to study for three years, go to a Beis Din, and have a gerus l'chumra. It was a very difficult and painful process.

Rather weird, if your mom is Jewish, you are Jewish... If there are no proofs or is a little doubt, they generally handle the gerut lechumra rapidly and pleasantly.... Not three years of hard study!

It was a very long journey, and a story for a different thread. I could write a whole megillah just on that!

marina

Wed, Aug 24 2011, 8:16 pm

Quote:

If she is being influenced by her directly - hanging out with her late at night .... then you must do all you can to keep her away from her ( I think the Chofetz Chaim says one may even make up lies about such a person)

Can you cite that Chofetz Chaim please?

Frantic frummie, why, in light of your background, do you speak in a derogatory way about nonJews, writing things like "she goes out of her way to dress as non jewish as possible" and so on?

As for your original question, why don't you imagine what the young teenaged you, with your purple hair and tattoos, would have appreciated? Would you want someone to tell you not to come to shul because you were influencing the others too much?

amother

Wed, Aug 24 2011, 8:51 pm

Frantic Frummie wow! I'd love to hear your story!

Just want to share that in our community we had a young man go OTD & make some terrible choices as well. He continued coming to our shul every shabbos & was a true apikores. His very charismatic personality drew groups of innocent young men to him & he would stand around in shul distracting everyone from davening & talking openly about his chilul shabbos & other aveiros he was doing. The rav in our shul called for a serious meeting with the board and they kicked him out. I promise you I cried hysterically when I heard that he was banned from entering our shul. DH said they were right. I think they were wrong. Dunno...my heart breaks every time I think of where he might be right now.

FF, does she openly talk against yidishkeit? Does she just stand around and make polite conversation with her teen friends? Makes a huge difference.

I do disagree with the attitude to just totally ignore it & leave it up to the parents in your community to teach their kids right. Not in todays world. Most parents dont have these serious conversations with their teens today or maybe they do but the teens are too busy texting & IMing to care.

StrawberrySmoothie

Wed, Aug 24 2011, 9:09 pm

amother wrote:

You do know there is essentially no such thing as a true apikores or any apikores nowadays?

Barbara

Wed, Aug 24 2011, 9:51 pm

amother wrote:

It makes me so sad to think that an Orthodox Rabbi has so little faith in the teens in his congregation -- teens who in just a few years, will be expected to marry, raise kids of their own, and run Jewish homes -- that he believes that exposure to someone who does not keep Shabbat, and who commits other aveiros will inevitably cause the teens to follow in his path. That an Orthodox Rabbi has so little faith in his own religion, that he believes that hearing about other ways will inevitably cause thinking young people to stray.

I'd never want to attend a shul with a rabbi who professed so little belief in Judaism.

Of ocurse, I'd also never attend a shul where the rabbi thought that he was better able to make parenting decisions about my children than I am. How dare anyone make rules about whom my child should associate with. Maybe, just maybe, OP, these parents have a little more faith in their kid than YOU do.

Barbara

Wed, Aug 24 2011, 10:00 pm

FranticFrummie wrote:

amother wrote:

FF, does she openly talk against yidishkeit?

Yes, she does.

Just one example. I am a jewelry designer, and I was explaining to her that I don't work most craft shows because the almost always fall on a Saturday, and I can't even ask a non Jew to sell for me on Shabbos. (ruling from my rav) She said "I can sell for you! I don't care, I don't do any of that Jewish stuff anymore."

Marina, there are non Jews, and then there are non jews. To me, she's emulating the most outrageous and inappropriate aspects of non Jewish behavior, so I think a term that means "the nations" I.e. NOT US, is quite appropriate. Feel free to be offended all you want.

Right.

Some of my best friends are Jews, you know.

So its OK to call them a bunch of Shylocks. I'm using it just to mean moneylenders. They're in the bankiing business, you know, or in business, and they really like to jew you down when they deal with you. These people demonstrate the most inappropriate behavior of Heebs.

But really, my friend Shloimie. Great guy. I don't hate all of them Shylocks. Just the ones who act like, well, like Jews.

For a woman whose father is a [gentile] (and I use the word for him since you tell me that its a term you think is appropriate to use for non-Jews,, so I guess its how you would like to describe him), you should be ashamed of yourself.

MaBelleVie

Wed, Aug 24 2011, 10:13 pm

Barbara wrote:

amother wrote:

Where did she mention anything about the rabbi being orthodox? That's an interesting assumption on your part. She also clearly stated that this boy was interfering with services and distracting people from davening by talking in middle of the shul and having groups of kids gathered around to listen as he bragged about his rejection of judaism. That is hardly, as yoy say, simply exposure to aveiros and hearing about others straying. This boy was undermining the purpose of having people in shul to begin with, which is primarily to daven.

Perhaps a lesser consequence would have worked, such as no tolerance for talking during services. But I, personally, would not be ok with someone standing in middle of shul during services and carrying on about his gripes with Gd.

Barbara

Wed, Aug 24 2011, 10:29 pm

MaBelleVie wrote:

Barbara wrote:

amother wrote:

You think that someone here goes to a non-Orthodox synagoguge? Since the poster referred to the shul as her own.

You know of any non-Orthodox synagogue referred to as a shul? (Conservatives have synagogues. Reform have Temples. I don't know what Reconstructionists have, but I doubt its shul.)

You hear of anyone other than Orthodox referring to someone as "OTD"? Or refer to their religious leader as "Rav"?

No question it was an Orthodox shul. And I don't know of a single Orthodox shul with a non-Orthodox rabbi.

But I agree. He should have been asked to step outside if he was disrupting people by chatting while davening. I'd love to see all of the talkers asked to step outside. Fat chance. But kicking someone out? Should not be done. Ever.