WAY off the derech teen in the community, what to do?

Kayza

Wed, Aug 24 2011, 11:42 pm

FranticFrummie wrote:

I don't know how "proud" this girl is to be Jewish. She goes out of her way to dress as non jewish as possible, she gave the baby a non Jewish name, the baby's father is a [gentile], and her new husband is a [gentile].

But, she does show up to shul (even if it's just for the Kidush) and tells people that her husband is a Jew. Obviously, she doesn't want to lose that connection.

Quote:

Personally, I'd love to see her get involved with Chabad, but if she showed up the way she usually dresses, I'm sure one of the ladies would whisk her out and make her cover up.

At a Chabad House? You don't really know much about those places, do you?

Quote:

I think that this is why this girl is affecting me so much. She really likes me, because deep down we have the same emotional damage. When I see her, I'm torn between wanting to hug her, and to shake her hard and yell "You're ruining your life, get professional help!"

Give her that hug. And, when you can, gently steer her in the right direction, even if it's on stuff that has nothing to dowith Yidishkeit per se. For instance, if she talks about job hunting you can give her some tips and also point out that things like green hair and trashy dress make it harder to land a good job. Things like that are surprisingly effective - and may make her more open to listening to that Pintele Yid and anyone else who can speak to it, even if you never say a word about yidishkeit to her.

Dolly Welsh

Thu, Aug 25 2011, 1:27 am

Just for the record, Chabad does NOT get attitude about oddly, or immodestly, dressed Jews walking in. You could first go to a nearby Chabad by yourself, and ask advice from the rebbetzin. If appropriate, you could then take this girl there, having made an appointment, so the rebbetzin or rabbi expects both of you.

Chabad is very much on the internet.

Google will tell you where the nearst one is.

They have a huge, interesting website. It has online study, forums, email blasts, videos and a terrific Jewish Calendar. The Calendar is very rich with information about the parsha, and the days, and candlelighting times.

Some of the Chabad rabbis and rebbetzins started out looking a little like this girl!

FranticFrummie

Thu, Aug 25 2011, 2:06 am

Merrymom wrote:

Is she being respectful of the people and the community? Some of the otd girls I know curse worse than a sailor; I'd never allow my children around someone like that. Is she showing up to shul (aside from green hair or punky style or whatever) dressed appropriately? If it's a shul where all the women dress with their knees covered and she shows up in a mini-dress that's not ok imho. You don't want to make her feel unwelcome, but certainly someone can speak to her about being respectful in a shul.

Hmmm, middy halter top with tummy showing, mini skirt, fishnet stockings and platform shoes... I dunno. You think that's inappropriate? I mean, it's hot out. I get it. I'm sweating like a racehorse, but somehow I manage to survive.

Kayza, she told me that she only tells people that her husband is Jewish so that people won't give her attitude - but then she turns around and says that he's a Jehovah's Witness and she's totally OK with that. Confused

To Dolly and others, re Chabad. I didn't mean every Chabad house everywhere, I meant the one specifically in my town. Not everyone would freak out, but I do know of several ladies who would absolutely plotz! There are many places in Israel that keep a box of skirts and shawls by the front door, and they WILL ask you to cover up, so it's not an unheard of thing to do. I mean, synagogues always keep a box of kippot by the front door, so how is it different to ask a girl in a tank top to put on a cardigan?

BTW, my DH is Lubavitch, so I think I may know a thing or two about them.

amother

Thu, Aug 25 2011, 3:14 am

Barbara wrote:

FranticFrummie wrote:

amother wrote:

FF, does she openly talk against yidishkeit?

Yes, she does.

Just one example. I am a jewelry designer, and I was explaining to her that I don't work most craft shows because the almost always fall on a Saturday, and I can't even ask a non Jew to sell for me on Shabbos. (ruling from my rav) She said "I can sell for you! I don't care, I don't do any of that Jewish stuff anymore."

Marina, there are non Jews, and then there are non jews. To me, she's emulating the most outrageous and inappropriate aspects of non Jewish behavior, so I think a term that means "the nations" I.e. NOT US, is quite appropriate. Feel free to be offended all you want.

Right.

Some of my best friends are Jews, you know.

So its OK to call them a bunch of Shylocks. I'm using it just to mean moneylenders. They're in the bankiing business, you know, or in business, and they really like to jew you down when they deal with you. These people demonstrate the most inappropriate behavior of Heebs.

But really, my friend Shloimie. Great guy. I don't hate all of them Shylocks. Just the ones who act like, well, like Jews.

For a woman whose father is a [gentile] (and I use the word for him since you tell me that its a term you think is appropriate to use for non-Jews,, so I guess its how you would like to describe him), you should be ashamed of yourself.

Wow. That was hurtful and condescending. Is it really so hard to be a little more understanding of the OP and a little less biting? I am new here and was looking forward to pleasant exchanges, but seeing this made my stomach turn. if you don't like someone's opinion, you can disagree (or ignore) without launching a personal attack.

amother

Thu, Aug 25 2011, 3:14 am

Barbara wrote:

FranticFrummie wrote:

amother wrote:

FF, does she openly talk against yidishkeit?

amother

Thu, Aug 25 2011, 3:15 am

Barbara wrote:

FranticFrummie wrote:

amother wrote:

FF, does she openly talk against yidishkeit?

amother

Thu, Aug 25 2011, 3:17 am

Barbara wrote:

FranticFrummie wrote:

amother wrote:

FF, does she openly talk against yidishkeit?

amother

Thu, Aug 25 2011, 3:17 am

Barbara wrote:

FranticFrummie wrote:

amother wrote:

FF, does she openly talk against yidishkeit?

amother

Thu, Aug 25 2011, 3:30 am

amother wrote:

Barbara wrote:

FranticFrummie wrote:

amother wrote:

FF, does she openly talk against yidishkeit?

lol, seems I just made it pretty obvious that I am new here. guess I needed the comedic relief. sorry, everyone! I won't come on here again until I am on a normal computer and can see how to post under my name and not in multiples. Smile

amother

Thu, Aug 25 2011, 3:32 am

amother wrote:

Barbara wrote:

FranticFrummie wrote:

amother wrote:

FF, does she openly talk against yidishkeit?

ora_43

Thu, Aug 25 2011, 3:47 am

Barbara wrote:

It makes me so sad to think that an Orthodox Rabbi has so little faith in the teens in his congregation -- teens who in just a few years, will be expected to marry, raise kids of their own, and run Jewish homes -- that he believes that exposure to someone who does not keep Shabbat, and who commits other aveiros will inevitably cause the teens to follow in his path. That an Orthodox Rabbi has so little faith in his own religion, that he believes that hearing about other ways will inevitably cause thinking young people to stray.

I'd never want to attend a shul with a rabbi who professed so little belief in Judaism.

I don't think it makes sense to assume from what amother said that the rabbi's decision was all about protecting teens from this man's views. What about the basic right to not be harassed in shul? Shul needs to be a place where people feel comfortable davening, not a place where they have to deal with someone who's openly scornful of their beliefs.

Would you expect a reform shul to put up with an orthodox person coming in and commenting throughout the service, "That's against halacha... I would never do this... women can't really be rabbis..." etc?

FranticFrummie

Thu, Aug 25 2011, 5:01 am

OK, let's turn things around a bit. You're the parent of a teen, maybe 15 or 16 years old, who thinks this girl is SO COOL and HIP! She pays attention to you teen, flatters her, chats with her, and is showing off one her latest body piercings. Suppose your observance is not so strong at home, but you're really trying to create a Torah atmosphere and bring your family to a higher level. What if you're FFB, and you child is questioning yiddishkeit and wanting to get more into the secular world, would that change your opinion?

How would you talk to your daughter or son about this girl? Would you encourage the friendship, give a gentle warning, or tell you child to stay away and find some frum kids to hang out with?

suzyq

Thu, Aug 25 2011, 8:16 am

FF, I think you have an amazing opportunity here to positively influence this girl who seems to be begging for Jewish attention. There is some reason she's showing up to shul every week - I can't really imagine any place most teens, especially ones who aren't going to fit the crowd, would rather avoid on a Saturday morning. Maybe she's doing it for shock value, but sounds to me like there is more to it than that.

You wrote that you have gone through a somewhat similar experience, and something or someone drew you back to Yiddishkeit - this is your opportunity to pay that forward, and make sure that her daughter is not part of a "lost generation." Give her that hug, invite her over, tell her how much you do relate to her, and be her friend.

I am sure you are concerned about what effect this might have on your daughter, but I think a simple talk with your daughter about how important it is to reach out to all Jews would go a long way in that respect.

Good luck and I hope that if not you, then someone else, teaches this girl what Judaism is really about.

PinkFridge

Thu, Aug 25 2011, 9:19 am

[quote="marina"]

Quote:

If she is being influenced by her directly - hanging out with her late at night .... then you must do all you can to keep her away from her ( I think the Chofetz Chaim says one may even make up lies about such a person)

Can you cite that Chofetz Chaim please? ]

Marina, I felt this deserved an answer, because I vaguely remembered something along these lines also. So while I was waiting for bloodwork this morning I perused my Guard Your Tongue. They took me back fast, I only had about 7 minutes, but the book has an excellent table of contents and index. In the limited time I had, I came up with Ch. 4, section 13 on p. 63,on Relating Faults in Order to Prevent Imitation. It explained how it can be necessary to very clearly say lashon hara to warn people to stay away, and went so far as to say that it can be a mitzvah. However, there, and another place (that I don't remember) stressed NOT to exaggerate.

So there are some possibilities.
- this halacha doesn't exist.
- I missed it.
- it exists and for some reason it's not in GYT.

IF, and I stress, IF it does exist, I would put it in the category of mitzvos such as shechita and bris, for which you may notice there are no DIY Artscroll books on. It's clear that certain halachos can only be executed by those who've had shimush and clear hadracha. If someone truly feels that this approach of lying or exaggerating is an appropriate chinuch tool under such clear circumstances, she still will NOT go wrong by NOT employing it until getting clarity from an experienced rav. I can guarantee that one will not lose out. The Chofetz Chaim stresses that it's better to err on the side of caution, in many circumstances, and I feel I can rely on the Ch Ch's havtacha in this case, no matter how imperative it might seem to start lying NOW. Stating just the facts, ma'am, with sincerity and warmth, and no rubbing of the hands (goody, we get to badmouth this tramp) is an effective tool.

Barbara

Thu, Aug 25 2011, 9:53 am

ora_43 wrote:

Barbara wrote:

The answer, in both cases, would be to ask the person not to speak during worship. Not to bar the person from shul.

Fox

Thu, Aug 25 2011, 10:53 am

There are really two separate issues going on here:

1) How best to help this young woman; and
2) How to make sure she doesn't influence young people in the community.

The first question -- how best to help her -- is probably dependent on factors that we, and possibly the OP as well, don't really know. Without knowing about how/why she arrived in the place she's at vis-a-vis Yiddishkeit, even an experienced kiruv professional would be reticent to make anything but general suggestions. Her attendance at shul is clearly making a statement despite her disavowals of "that Jewish stuff." There are some people whose personalities make them naturally rebellious, and they spend a lifetime overcoming their aversion to authority; there are other people who become defiant in response to a traumatic incident or a series of experiences that have a dramatic effect. We don't really know the case here.

The second question is how she is influencing others. While the Torah gives us clear instructions about avoiding such people, the problem is made more complex by mass media and instant communication. If you live anywhere but a tightly isolated community in EY, you are going to know that there are people who comport themselves in ways antithetical to Torah. Even the streets of BP and WB get their share of creatively-attired folks!

So the question is, how do you inoculate your kids against these influences? Unfortunately, you don't.

However, you enlist the advice of genuine chinuch experts, and you do your best to provide a loving, safe environment in which kids are neither stifled too much nor given excessive unsupervised free time.

You try your best to listen respectfully when your teens and pre-teens talk, and you find ways to spend time with them and their friends (my favorite tactic is being willing to drive them almost anywhere in North America). You promise them that no matter what they ask or request, you'll take it seriously and consider it before immediately saying, "no." You do your best to make sure that your kids' schools respond appropriately to their problems and that issues such as bullying are addressed. You do your best to promote shalom bayis and make your home a fun, happy place.

You try to distinguish between your kids' need to exert their independence and genuine rejection/rebellion. IMHO, this is something we're terrible at doing in the frum community. We've "defined deviance up" to borrow the late Senator Moynihan's terminology. A teenager makes a questionable fashion choice or argues about a particular hashkafa, and we promptly attach an "at risk" label and wring our hands.

Finally, you daven. And daven some more.

Sure, frum teenagers will be attracted to this young woman. She's a novelty! But as long as they detect that the primary emotion she elicits is pity rather than disapproval, she's not a threat. Disapproval from parents and community is glamorous and romantic and exciting to teenagers; pity, however, is to be avoided at all costs!

Hashem_Yaazor

Thu, Aug 25 2011, 11:25 am

Barbara, there is a difference between someone OTD and someone who is an apikorus. I don't think it's true there is no such thing as an apikorus these days -- I know of a psak halacha given to one such individual.
Someone who is paskened to be an apikorus has very different halachos surrounding him as it's a complete danger to have him around others. The halachos of L"H are clear that one is permitted to speak against him. Banning him from shul seems like it was the only solution in this particular case. It does not mean that the rabbi would repeat that for other people who are no longer observant.