Non-religious Orthodox Rabbi?

amother

Sun, Oct 16 2011, 12:54 pm

My husband is from a small community in California. Before we got married, I lived there, in his family's small-ish community, while I did my second geirut (first one was conservative, long story). There is only a ChaBaD, one black hat shul, and one 'modern' shul. Most of the people who go to the 'modern shul' are not shomer mitzvot, but that was OK with me, because I liked the philosophy of the shul and it's members. The shul itself was s.m., and that's what was important to me. Most don't know what to expect from an Orthodox rabbi or rebbetzin.

However, I have a problem. The rabbi is INCOMPETENT and not observant! He graduated from rabbinical school less than 10 years ago, (a very m.o. one), his wife dresses is a way that is totally not tznius. I am makil on tznius for other's, I'm not like, "Oh, it's wrong to wear pants," but she wore NO haircovering, NO sleeves, and a LOW-CUT dress in public. When I went to visit CA this summer, she was wearing a BIKINI on the beach at a shul event. When I went into a non-kosher McDonald's to get a bottle of water, I bumped into them--eating fries! (It's a small town.) I'm not perfect, but how on earth is this man a rabbi? The rebbetzin claims to be "so religious" and goes around harping on people to do mikvah and kasher their homes, yet for all intents and purposes, they may as well be conservative or reform. Then, the rabbi wrote an article on an m.o. blog saying that gay (male) marriage was OK for non-Jews.

Now that I've moved away, I've seen how messed up he is in comparison to other rabbis. The question is: WHAT do I do? Anything? Is this normal???

amother

Sun, Oct 16 2011, 1:09 pm

Some of the things they do would have been seen or maybe are still seen in way OOT frum families until the 1990's or so.

If it had been a bathing suit instead of a bikini and not to a shul event.
If they had been eating out stuff that some rabbis allow (McDonalds fries are fried in the same oil as meat hence afaik no one allows it).
There is low cut and low cut. Some things are off limit for all (showing breast, basically). While I do not know of sources allowing sleeveless, I have seen old wives of rabbis wearing it so I don't know.
I don't understand how he rules halachically gay wedding could be ok but I know the opinion is shared on Imamother

(btw it could be that the rabbi doesn't approve of his wife's behaviour)

If you have a real concern he may be a fraud or cause more sinning to the kehila, maybe you should report to the rabbinate. I am certain that despite this the rebbetzin can be "the frummie" if she is shomer shabbes, kosher meat, mikve...

nylon

Sun, Oct 16 2011, 1:31 pm

Honestly, AFAIK, the McDonalds wouldn't even be ok with Conservative rabbis, if my memory of JTSA standards is accurate.

The tzniut things, well, that's tricky IMO and I would never touch that. She's not the rabbi, for a start. Kashrut is another story. McDonalds fries are out and out treif because beef flavoring is used. Is the rabbi a member of the RCA or any other groups? He may be violating their standards.

That said, there may be nothing you can do. You're not a part of the community any more, you may be seen as a meddler, and the community may be happy with this rabbi.

Barbara

Sun, Oct 16 2011, 1:58 pm

amother wrote:

Many Modern Orthodox have no objection to the manner in which the rebbetzin was dresesd.

As to the fries, McDonald's very famously claimed that their fries were fried only in vegetarian oil, conveniently forgetting to mention that they added beef essence to the fries for taste. The Hindus and vegetarians sued, and won. But if you didn't know that ....

But yes, let's criticize people who encourage others to keep mitzvot, to observe taharat mishpacha, to keep kosher. They might as well be Conservative or Reform.

What can you do? Stay out of McDonald's. Marais ayin, after all, would lead everyone to believe that you were eating a bacon double cheeseburger. Wear clothes that you deem appropriate. And try not to judge others.

Yocheved84

Sun, Oct 16 2011, 2:53 pm

OP, sorry to be so blunt, but I think you should mind your business and stay out of it. Why attempt to ruin another Yidden's life? He isn't hurting anyone and if anything, is encouraging others to embrace their Judaism. You moved on to a more observant path, and good for you (seriously--I don't mean this facetiously) for doing so. But what you describe doesn't sound wrong per se. Was he eating the McRib with his fries along with a shake? If you've been on this site long enough, you'll know that "Orthodox" has many layers and many means to many different people!

DrMom

Sun, Oct 16 2011, 2:59 pm

amother wrote:

I am not sure what you can do, but in my experience, no, this is definitely not normal.

Some possible explanations:

- Does this shul officially consider itself "Orthodox," or is the rabbi simply someone w/Orthodox smicha who is now not Orthodox at all? I have seen some rabbis who happen to have smicha from an orthodox institution describe themselves as "transdenominational" or "post-denominational." Not sure what that means in practice, but it's definitely not Orthodox.
Is this shul affiliated with any of the major Orthodox shul organizations (Young Israel, etc.)?

- Is it possible that the rebbetzin is going OTD but the rabbi is okay?

Raisin

Sun, Oct 16 2011, 3:16 pm

I think it is strange too, especially the madonalds thing. What planet is he on that he doesn't know that fries from mcdonalds are treif?

His wifes dress and behaviour is her business. She is not the rabbi.

Myabe they are just both very very ignorant. I know some well meaning people who consider themselves Orthodox and really do try their best, but they are simply not knowledgable about halacha.

Maybe they consider themselves conservadox?

Marion

Sun, Oct 16 2011, 3:31 pm

OK why is gay "marriage" a problem for non-Jews? They're NOT bound by halacha, and since most are not even Noachides, gilui arayot is a non-issue also. On that, OP, you're wrong.

Beyond that, there's no reason a non-Orthodox man can't get Orthodox smicha, any more than an Orthodox woman can't get non-Orthodox smicha. (Smicha is not much more than an indicator of what material an individual has covered.) You may expect certain behaviour from a Rav, but smicha is not a guarantee that he acts that way. If it bothers you get a new Rav.

amother

Sun, Oct 16 2011, 5:43 pm

Wow, way to attack me. This is OP here. All yidden are responsible for each other, I don't want to ruin anyone's life, I just find this behavior seriously bizarre. I don't want this family to lead people into eating french fries or wearing bikinis, thinking, "My rabbi's wife does it--so it's ok."

I realize that tznius is relative, but a bikini is definitely out for a rav's wife, if she is, in fact, on the derech. I am generally non-judgmental about levels of kashrut--so you want to eat triangle K, fine by me. I am not some harpy who hates on people. I just don't understand this rabbi, who advertises himself as "orthodox" and has an "orthodox" synagogue could be eating out fries.

Also, seriously, who does not know about not eating fries out because of the beef flavoring? I knew that years ago, my Hindu friends NEVER eat out McDonald's fries. How did the word not get to this family?
As for maaris ayin, I spoke to a rav about it once who said that you CAN go into a non-kosher fast food restaurant, b/c they serve water, coke, and many people stop there and go to the bathroom. I would not judge someone for being in a McDonald's or Burger King or whatever. But sitting there and eating the fries? Come on.

I am not out to ruin another Yid's life--but I do not think that someone who does things like this should be a representative of frumkeit to a community that does not have a strong knowledge of what frumkeit even is. I think it is hypocritical for someone to wear a bikini, eat out non-kosher, and then tell someone else that their kitchen is treif because they use the same microwave for meat and milk.

And yes, I will have to deal with them in the future. My SIL lives in their area, and we are scheduled to visit her for sukkot. They are the only shul in walking distance....

Liba

Sun, Oct 16 2011, 6:01 pm

Was this "rabbi" per chance in charge of a shul in Western Massachusetts about 17-18 years ago?

I spoke with the Rabbi who gave the "rabbi" in Masachusetts smicha, when they were touting vegetarian airplane meals as a viable option to ordering kosher meals and buying filleted (skin free) fish from a grocery store without hashgacha. The "rabbi"s wife also has an interesting concept of tznius, so I wonder if they are the same couple. If so, it didn't help then, so it probably won't help now.

If it isn't the same couple, maybe speaking to the rav who gave him smicha would be of help? I really have no idea what happened with the rabbi I had dealings with. I moved out of the area and as far as I know, so did he.

Dolly Welsh

Sun, Oct 16 2011, 6:05 pm

I completely sympathize with OP. But her SIL is going to have to live with whatever she does.

Maybe the SIL can move near to OP.

Ewww.

That has no source, that ewwww. It's just an ewwww.

And the Noahide laws prohibit adultery. Of course, that depends what you mean by that.

Ewww.

(Our beliefs do not exempt even one non-Jew in all five billion from the Noahide laws. So you can't "not be a Noahide". And our 14 million souls do not need to be subtracted from the seven billion. We are a rounding error.)

Last edited by Dolly Welsh on Sun, Oct 16 2011, 7:08 pm; edited 1 time in total

Raisin

Sun, Oct 16 2011, 6:52 pm

freidasima wrote:

Barbara you are on a roll lady! Three out of three! third post of yours I''ve seen today that I think should be a compulsory read for everyone. Keep it going!

As for the rest of you, mind your own business. Some people don't know about the fries and beef flavor, tznius is relative and what in the world does it have to do with keeping or not keeping mikva or helping people keep their homes kosher?

A rabbi doesn't know to check out the kashrus of the food he is eating in public where anyone of his congregants will see him and assume it is ok to eat that food? I find that hard to beleive.

Raizle

Sun, Oct 16 2011, 6:58 pm

I haven't read the whole thread but I disagree with those of you telling the OP not to judge and getting on her case for doing so.
This isn't her neighbor, cousin, sister, friend
This is the "Rabbi's" wife. When a married man agrees to the position of Rabbi he, he is also agreeing to being an example for his community. So too is his wife. She is also expected to set an example and is expected to act a certain way.
Therefore when the members of a community see their Rebbetzin or Rabbi doing questionable things they are perfectly in the right to speak up and question them.
If our Rov were to G-d Forbid stop observing mitzvos, he would be out of a job before you can blink an eye.
Being observant is part of the job of being a Rabbi of an orthodox community.

I would expect the MO members of this website to be up in arms about this and to be stating firmly that this Rabbi is not representative of their community.

Raizle

Sun, Oct 16 2011, 7:01 pm

Dolly Welsh wrote:

what thread are you responding to?

Dolly Welsh

Sun, Oct 16 2011, 7:11 pm

amother wrote:

This OP saying her SIL lives there.

Dolly Welsh

Sun, Oct 16 2011, 7:12 pm

Marion wrote:

I was disagreeing with this poster about the bolded part.

Dolly Welsh

Sun, Oct 16 2011, 7:14 pm

Raizle wrote:

Agree.