Community and school for out of the box??

shabbatiscoming

Thu, Nov 24 2011, 5:58 pm

Seraph wrote:

shabbatiscoming wrote:

Seraph wrote:

amother wrote:

Sereph, u have a website? Do share!

Lol, its in my signature, PennilessParenting.com

Quote:

Also ur mother may have different type of exposure than the younger marrieds that live there?

Maybe. But my younger siblings live there too. They're 12, 14, and 21, and they go to school there or went to school there. My married step sister who is 24 with two kids also lives there now, and all my step siblings grew up in kochav hashachar. The people there are nice, but its not a "torani/chardal yishuv". Just standard dati leumi as far as I can see. If you want more to the right but still dati leumi, bet el bet probably would be a better fit.
ETA: You didn't say how you feel about zionism/rav kook/medinat yisrael, because these dati leumi places are VERY VERY zionistic in a religious sense for the most part, and you have to make sure you're cool/comfortable with that.

Quote:

I'm sure my friend wouldn't mind u asking her about kochav hashachar. She may even be on here? I must ask her. Will try and speak to her over the weekend and pm you details.

JOOC, is your friends initials RN?

So interesting seraph because I know three families and I would only describe them as being chardal/torani, and not regular dati leumi. Ill tell you that one of the rabbanim that the sem that I went to, you know..., lives there. Do you know who I mean? Well, this rav is not JUST dati leumi.

I guess in comparison to what. Rabbi S (thats who you mean, yea?) is pretty middle of the road dati leumi, not very modern and not very extremely strict either. The really strict DL is rather different, more to the right.

Yes, that was who I meant Wink

I guess I meant that the woman cover all of the hair, always have socks on, even if they wear sandalim, are covered way past the elbow, just to name the externals. Is that not more torani to start with?

Seraph

Thu, Nov 24 2011, 6:00 pm

Malasheval wrote:

Seraph wrote:

Malasheval wrote:

Okay, just checking. Smile

I always have that pic in my head when I read your posts. You're the only one on this site that isn't faceless to me, and I didn't want to lose that!

I guess I just have to modify the image a bit.

Mitpachat or snood? For the sake of accuracy, you know...

Lol. Typically Israeli tichel, but sometimes also berets.

Lol, if you need an exact description for accuracy, here is me a few hours ago, before heading out to a wedding...
https://www.facebook.com/photo.....eater

OK, that's officially my new visual. Thanks!

BTW, both you and your son are adorable!

And what a cute little belly... Smile

Lol thanks. But remove the makeup if you want a "real visual". I think tonight was the first time in over 6 mos that I was wearing makeup.

amother

Thu, Nov 24 2011, 6:09 pm

Seraph wrote:

amother wrote:

Sereph, u have a website? Do share!

Lol, its in my signature, PennilessParenting.com

Quote:

Also ur mother may have different type of exposure than the younger marrieds that live there?

Quote:

I'm sure my friend wouldn't mind u asking her about kochav hashachar. She may even be on here? I must ask her. Will try and speak to her over the weekend and pm you details.

JOOC, is your friends initials RN?

Well I guess you have more idea than me then!!! LOL

Was worth a shot.... my friend isnt RN.

Seraph

Thu, Nov 24 2011, 6:12 pm

shabbatiscoming wrote:

Seraph wrote:

Yes, that was who I meant Wink

IMO, it all depends on how you define Dati Leumi. There's dati lite, who is very modern and not that much different than conservadox. I don't count them among dati leumi categories.
Then there's more modern dati leumi, I guess like the women who wear short sleeves, might wear pants, don't cover all the hair, may just wear a hat with a pony tail or even long hair showing, go without socks, etc...
Then you have more middle of the road, like the S family, cover hair fully, wear socks, etc...

Then you have torani/chardal, which is practically chareidi if not for the zionism. Strict gender segregation, eating only mehadrin foods, would never bring internet into the home, husband may learn in a dati leumi kollel for a few years or even long term, encouraging limud torah as much as possible and more minimal secular studies (but not avoided completely usually. but sometimes secular studies are avoided.)

You don't really have that last section in kochav hashachar, aside for maybe a few select families.
You do have it in bet el bet in large quantities. The avreichim from yeshivat bet el are almost all like that, as well as many of the other bet el bet families.
You do have it in kochav yaakov. Many of the "dati leumi" families here send their kids to bais yaakovs and chareidi talmud torahs.

Aylat

Thu, Nov 24 2011, 6:26 pm

Seraph wrote:

ETA: You didn't say how you feel about zionism/rav kook/medinat yisrael, because these dati leumi places are VERY VERY zionistic in a religious sense for the most part, and you have to make sure you're cool/comfortable with that.

I left that out almost deliberately...

I guess I have an ambiguous attitude towards medinat yisrael. Is it the itchalta de'geula? I personally do not know. When I look at all the ideological arguments in Jewish history, they only got resolved in retrospect - I think this is another of them. (b'H it should be resolved soon!)

I was discussing communities with my bil a while ago, and he said we probably wouldn't be comfortable in ?(can't remember the name of community) because of the strong religious zionism. Would this be a problem in kochav yaakov?

I certainly can't claim to have learned very much of R Kook's work, but what I have was beautiful and inspiring and a deep perspective that speaks to me.

PS B'sha'a tova Smile

Seraph

Thu, Nov 24 2011, 6:35 pm

Aylat wrote:

Seraph wrote:

You do have it in kochav yaakov. Many of the "dati leumi" families here send their kids to bais yaakovs and chareidi talmud torahs.

So what makes them dati leumi? Attitude towards medinat yisrael or something else?

Lol, the fact that they're not chareidi. The fact that the husbands will wear clothes other than the black and white, and that the mothers often don't dress chareidi style, even if totally tzanua. The fact that they often will vote "dati leumi" vs voting chareidi. The fact that they choose to live in a mixed community and not in a strictly chareidi place. The fact that they'll daven and give aliyos to guys wearing sandals, kippot srugot, and who aren't wearing black hats.
Its complicated. People are very out of the box here. Which is why we fit in great, because we're not either Israeli chareidi or dati leumi.

Seraph

Thu, Nov 24 2011, 6:41 pm

Aylat wrote:

Seraph wrote:

I hear you.

Quote:

I was discussing communities with my bil a while ago, and he said we probably wouldn't be comfortable in ?(can't remember the name of community) because of the strong religious zionism. Would this be a problem in kochav yaakov?

No. But it would be a problem in places like bet el bet, etc. There, the whole issue of mediniyut, yishuv haaretz, etc... are the main focus of their life, and if you are ambivalent to the concept, or "ch'v!!!" anti, then you'll really feel like you stick out. In bet el, the impression I got was rav kook was THE rav, his word was the final word, vizehu. In Kochav Yaakov, however, the impression I get is that rav kook was respected and looked up to, but his word wasn't the final word. He is just one "big rav" among many other "big rabbonim".
I have an aversion to rav kook's teachings (backlash to rav kook overload in my sem) and had a problem in bet el with that, because every single dvar torah ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS without fail would be based on rav kook's sfarim or he'd be brought into the dvar torah.
In KY, its here and there, but he isn't "the only rav".

In KY, there are quite a few people ambivalent about the medina, etc... which, again, makes me more comfortable here.

Aylat

Thu, Nov 24 2011, 7:11 pm

Seraph wrote:

Aylat wrote:

Seraph wrote:

You do have it in kochav yaakov. Many of the "dati leumi" families here send their kids to bais yaakovs and chareidi talmud torahs.

So what makes them dati leumi? Attitude towards medinat yisrael or something else?

That sounds great! I am liking this more and more! (unfortunately my packing for shabbat isn't get done Wink

)

But I guess I'm surprised the bais yaakovs/chareidi talmud torahs accept their kids if they don't dress the dress etc. I thought you had to fit in to the system totally for your kids to go to those schools. Which was bothering me quite a bit. Have I got this wrong, or is this unique to ky? Any other places like this?

Seraph

Thu, Nov 24 2011, 7:18 pm

Aylat wrote:

Seraph wrote:

Aylat wrote:

Seraph wrote:

You do have it in kochav yaakov. Many of the "dati leumi" families here send their kids to bais yaakovs and chareidi talmud torahs.

So what makes them dati leumi? Attitude towards medinat yisrael or something else?

That sounds great! I am liking this more and more! (unfortunately my packing for shabbat isn't get done Wink

Not all chareidi schools will accept people from KY/like this. The schools in tel tzion (the chareidi part of the same yishuv) often do, as do some of the bais yaakovs in neve yaakov, slightly more "modern" bais yaakovs. The families I'm talking about, the husbands wear the velvet yarmulka, and the wives dress totally tzanua, just a different style (like flowy skirts, more hippy style, and different style mitpachot/tichels, vs formal suit like or button down shirts with black skirts).
TBH, I'm not sure what most of these guys wear. I know my landlord is a kollel guy and he definitely doesn't walk around all day with a hat on his head, in fact I don't recall ever seeing him wearing a hat, but I honestly can't place whether he wears black and white or not. :-D

And the KY website isn't the best place to find info. If you want info, pm me, imamama, or HindaRochel.

Seraph

Sat, Nov 26 2011, 2:09 pm

Ruchel wrote:

Hashem must be crying that aliot are not given to hatless Sruga kipa or sandals guys. Sad

Maybe. Maybe not.
There is an inyan- maybe even halacha- with kavod hatorah and not giving an aliya to someone who isn't dressed appropriately. Some places that means no guys in above the knee shorts, some places it means no shorts at all, some places it means no bare feet and sandals without socks are considered bare feet, and some places it means no one without a double head covering, aka a yarmulka and either a hat or talis on top.

DrMom

Sat, Nov 26 2011, 3:01 pm

It's funny -- we live in a very mixed community and belong to a very live-and-let-live kehillah. There are women with sheitels, women with hats, women with bandanas, women who don't cover outside of shul, women who wear skirts, women who wear pants, women who wear only 3/4-to-long sleeves, women who wera short sleeves, etc. etc etc. Same spectrum for the men.

It sounds so odd to me to hear someone ask, "I wear denim skirts, wear a sheitel, and wear flip-flops and stockings; my husband has colored shirts, black socks, and wears hats. Where should we live?" and then everyone gives suggestions and people debate whether they are good or bad suggestions.

There are all these very specific sub-genres of Jews and they all live separately, so if you move to a community where you don't comply with the accepted narrow standards of that community you will be a fish out of water. How weird.

Ruchel

Sun, Nov 27 2011, 6:36 am

Seraph wrote:

Ruchel wrote:

Hashem must be crying that aliot are not given to hatless Sruga kipa or sandals guys. Sad

But unless the guy is inappropriate by all standards (then good), I don't see how one can apply this halacha unless maybe everyone in the shul is exactly the same (but then what about someone having guests, or tourists or whatever).