touching self = behavior problems?

amother

Tue, Dec 13 2011, 9:12 am

My 3.5 yo ds just started having these HORRIBLE tantrums a couple of weeks ago, could last up to two hours of SCREAMING, refusing anything (even the things he wants), and just total misery for him, me, and my younger ds. We first thought he was reacting badly to some antibiotics, but they've been out of his system for almost a week now (and we've beenf eeding him yogurt and probiotics) and he's still out of control. HELP!

Dh mentioned yesterday that he's seen him touching self a lot recently -- a new thing for him. He's been completely ignoring it -- and I haven't even SEEN it -- but he's wondering whether it could be causing these behavior problems. He does it a lot in the bath, apparently, but also just randomly while playing, and he seems very "out of it" afterwards for a few seconds. But could that be causing this? And if so, how should we react? I know you're not supposed to react at all, and it's normal, but....this is completely messing up our lives right now, if it's related...

amother

Tue, Dec 13 2011, 9:57 am

That's the thing -- no. I don't know what could be stressing him out. He seems happy in playgroup -- and apparently doesn't have any of these crazy tantrums there. Only at home. It happens with dh as well as me, so I don't think that it's anything to do with one of us in particular, but I'm with him a lot more than dh is, so I get the brunt of it. No new baby or pregnancy in the picture. No big changes being made. Really nothing. He's excited about chanukah, but this started before that. I really can't think of anything. Sometimes his aggression is towards his little brother, but sometimes it's towards me, and sometimes it's towards things that have nothing to do with any of us (frustration that his tower fell down, or that he got hurt, or seemingly nothing at all).

I just can't deal with this anymore. He makes our afternoons miserable. It's like having a severely colicky baby, except one that's capable of doing real harm.

imasinger

Tue, Dec 13 2011, 10:03 am

Sometimes, kids act like that just as they are going through a developmental spurt, learning how to do something new. Or maybe something is happening at playgroup, and he doesn't feel safe enough to act up there, so he saves it for home. Or maybe you or your DH has some other stress in your lives and he is picking up on the cues.

I'd suggest a carrot-and-stick approach. Spend more time playing with him, noticing him, and praising him for everything that he does right.

At the same time, find a system that works for you (we use time-outs) to correct him when he is behaving inappropriately.

You could also consider making a sticker chart and offering some intangible reward (like an extra game or a later bedtime or a playdate) if he makes it through X amount of time without having a tantrum. Gradually extend the amount of time, so that he builds on success.

amother

Tue, Dec 13 2011, 10:17 am

I think he's learning how to read. Does that count? Just a few days ago he started to sound out words on his own -- on street signs and cereal boxes and things like that.

How long do these "developmental spurts" last? I just want my own ds back? It's completely ruining our relationship. I feel like I'm constantly saying "no" to him, and I've been so conscious of trying to say "yes" as much as possible and play with him more and say more encouraging things to him.

I've been trying time outs, but he just explodes even more! I think dh doesn't approve of the time outs because he sees that he gets worse during them. And then we have the issue of him trying to get out when I put him in his room. And I try to be as gentle as I can when putting him in, but he struggles so much (he used to walk there nicely when he -- very rarely -- needed a time out before this) that I need to hld him tightly, and he complains that I'm hurting him and makes a whole scene out of it...so I wish I had another option that wasn't quite as aggravating.

imasinger

Tue, Dec 13 2011, 10:31 am

For time outs, they can stay where you can see them, but they have to sit quietly. Set a timer and keep them short. Add on a minute for any time they break time-out rules (by talking, squawking, etc. Time-outs have to be sitting quietly.)

You can set up a sticker chart for taking time-outs successfully, too. Give him some kind of small reward for every time that he does it without a problem.

Carrot and stick. Reward for doing it right, extra minutes for not doing it right.

amother

Tue, Dec 13 2011, 10:43 am

imasinger wrote:

See, under normal circumstances, this would work. But I tried this yesterday (each time he started screaming, I said, "Okay, now four minutes, okay, now five minutes" and he just kept on going. L'hachis. That's the best word I can come up to describe what's going on. It's like something is inside of him that makes him just want to do things wrong as much as possible.

Like sometimes everything will be calm, and all of the sudden, he'll say sometihng in this nasty voice like "Mommy! I want a DRINK!!!!" In the past,I would have encouraged him to use a nice voice, but recently I've been ignoring "little" things like that, so I'd say, "Okay" and get up to get hima drink. At which point the tantrum starts, where he SCREAMS "NO! I DON'T WANT A DRINK! GO AWAY!" until I say "Okay" again, and then he starts screaming about how he does want a drink, and Mommy isn't giving him one. If I give him the drink, he'll throw it across the room and then scream that he wants it.

Just an example of an ordinary tantrum trigger. Sure, sometimes it happens because ds2 takes away his toy, or because I said no to something that he wanted. but sometimes he really just seems to WANT to get upset.

Is this still normal?

amother

Tue, Dec 13 2011, 11:22 am

I did. They said they couldn't find anything. The ear infection seems to be gone. No other problems they could figure out. Sigh, I wish they had found something small that we could fix easily.

At least once a day, but that one time could be two full hours in the afternoon! Sometimes twice, which means once in the morning before we leave to playgroup, and once in the afternoon. Pretty much means that unless he's doing something very distracting (like taking him to a new, "different" place that he's never been before), he could be tantrumming the majority of the time that he's at home. And even when he's not tantrumming, he's definitely extremely moody.

Again, does this sound like regular "growth spurt" behavior or something? Is this normal for a 3.5 yo? It seems over the top to me, but I don't know what to do about it. I try to be so calm, but yesterday I just gave up and shut him in his room for over an hour! (Offered to let him out once, but he did the "I don't want to! NO! I want to! No, I don't! so he was in there for over an hour. I felt like a horrible mommy.)

Here's the other post I wrote about it this morning, for more background.

http://imamother.com/forum/vie.....49289

I just about give up....sigh.

amother

Tue, Dec 13 2011, 11:28 am

As for how he reacts to other strategies -- the same way! If I send him into time out, take away toys that he's not playing with nicely, or whatever type of "strict" discipline, he yells and screams and continues with the tantrum. And just never seems to calm down. If I offer him food (because he might be hungry) he throws tantrums about how he doesn't want that food, doesn't want that one, doesn't want food at all...NO I WANT FOOD NOW MOMMY!!! If I try to take him out of the house, he screams that he doesn't want to go, kicks me and struggles if I try to put on his shoes. One day recently, I actually gave up trying to be patient, and said "We. Are. going. Out. Now." Put on his shoes by force, while practically sitting on him (not hurting him, but it was the only way to get those shoes on!), put on his coat by force, and got him out the front door. took him to a friend's house, and he was fine there. But I can't spend the whole afternoon every single day out of the house! Sometimes ds2 needs to nap, I need to make dinner, its cold and pouring outside on a Sunday when nothing is open, it's too close to dinnertime to actually go anywhere, or he tantrums out of the house and THEN what am I supposed to do with him? When I talk to him about how I'm so sad when he talks that, and act really sad, he sometimes snaps out of it for a couple of minutes but then goes right back again, literally less than five minutes later.

imasinger

Tue, Dec 13 2011, 2:17 pm

If you are worried about him, it couldn't hurt to ask for further evaluation from an appropriate source. Since everything has been fine until recently, it's probably just a stage, but if it would set your mind at ease, then I'd advise you to investigate further. Ask for an EI evaluation, just to settle your mind, maybe.

In general, it sounds like your job is going to be to stay calm and help him understand that he needs to stay calm, too.

You could try drawing or printing out some pictures of favorite food, and a picture of a cup, and a picture of some toys. Put velcro on the back of them, and the other part of the vecro on a folder. This can be your "choice board." When DS says in his whiny voice that he wants something, have him take the thing that he wants and put it on the board. By involving his eyes and his muscles, you encourage his realization that he does indeed want this particular thing.

Teach him about behaviors that are "expected" (I.e., desired), and "unexpected" (undesirable). This is easier to think about than being good or bad. If you keep back the item until he asks with a calm voice and a calm body, he might not be halfway to meltdown before you even start.

Another thing to check is whether he needs to use the bathroom. Some children get really testy when they have to go, and need reminders to take care of business.

But if you haven't yet tried the sticker chart, I highly recommend it.

5*Mom

Wed, Dec 14 2011, 12:50 pm

imasinger wrote:

But if you haven't yet tried the sticker chart, I highly recommend it.

This sounds way beyond a sticker chart to me. Sounds like something is wrong and I don't think he'll be able to hold it together for a sticker or prize and that will cause its own meltdown. I wouldn't go down that road. I'm thinking undetected physical/medical something (constipation? allergy? pandas? something else?) or something that a child psych may be able to pick up on. I don't think it's anything alarming, just out of the ordinary and there must be a cause. You need to find the cause before you decide on a course of action so you don't risk hurting your son or your relationship.

edited to say: I'm not referring to the title of the post but to his meltdowns.

amother

Wed, Dec 14 2011, 2:43 pm

intrigued wrote:

Is there a reason why only your Dh noticed this? Who bathes him? Once your Dh pointed it out do you also see it? As you wrote "apparently". What exactly does this mean?

Dh bathes him, that's why he sees it often. He's also much more observant than I am. I haven't seen it since he mentioned it two days ago, but he says it happens often in the bath, and he's seen in a couple of times when he had clothes (and a diaper) on.

5*Mom -- That's exactly what I think! But how am I supposed to get him to one? His doctor said he's physically fine. Do I call them back and ask for a referral, just based on my own gut instinct?

intrigued

Wed, Dec 14 2011, 3:07 pm

amother wrote:

intrigued wrote:

Is there a reason why only your Dh noticed this? Who bathes him? Once your Dh pointed it out do you also see it? As you wrote "apparently". What exactly does this mean?

If you have never seen it in action why all the frenzy? I assume you are with him a considerable amount of the day so it obviously can't be too often. I see that you are worried about his change in behaviour and that is granted but I am not sure if this "playing around" with himself is as big of a deal you are making out. Sounds quite typical for his age doesn't seem too excessive.

imasinger

Wed, Dec 14 2011, 3:08 pm

amother wrote:

intrigued wrote:

Is there a reason why only your Dh noticed this? Who bathes him? Once your Dh pointed it out do you also see it? As you wrote "apparently". What exactly does this mean?

Yes! BTDT. Also, check around to see who does Early Intervention evaluations in your neck of the woods.

amother

Wed, Dec 14 2011, 3:20 pm

intrigued wrote:

amother wrote:

intrigued wrote:

Is there a reason why only your Dh noticed this? Who bathes him? Once your Dh pointed it out do you also see it? As you wrote "apparently". What exactly does this mean?

No frenzy here. Frenzy over the behavior problems, and when I was discussing it with my dh a few nights ago, he suggested that there might be a link between the two, but didn't knwo if that made sense or if anything could be done about it. He was ignoring the behavior, we knew it was normal, but we were wondering if there could be a connection between it and the behavioral problems. So I came online to see if anyone had heard of this connection before, and if so, if there's anything that can be done to minimize the (resulting?) behavior problems.

Seems like the answer to my original question was no. I also posted another thread about the whole behavior issue, but only two posters commented there. I guess this title was more eye-catching, so I'm glad I posted this thread too! Unless someone posts that the same thing happened to their ds, or that they've heard of this connection before, I guess the question in the original title is moot. But I'm happy to continue this part of the discussion in the hope of figuring out how to deal with the behavior issues.