Trees removed at Seattle Airport

TzenaRena

Tue, Dec 12 2006, 3:25 pm

Quote:

don't support anyone who's arrogant enough to demand that non-Jews put up his menorah, and thereby fan the flames of latent anti-Semitism

sarahd, whose menorah is it? I'm certain that the Rabbi has his own menorah.

This is a menorah for the Jews of Seattle, and the airport is saying that X-tians may have their public decorations, but Jews may not have a menorah. This stuff about any other religious symbols is just a smokescreen for the inappropriate response that they gave.

And a lawsuit is not some awful thing, it's the only way to bring the matter to court. It's the right of every American, including Rabbis to bring matters for adjudication.

Is there or isn't there religious freedom in America?!

amother

Tue, Dec 12 2006, 3:57 pm

Everyone here is soo judgemental! Take a chill... Guys, he was NOT trying to make a Chillul Hashem or trying to take down the tree. All he said was that "It wasnt fair"- and yes, in attempt to prove his point- he will sue. (and do you actually think he would have? has anyone ever said something and not really mean it to prove a point or to get their way?)Okay- so some people can say that thats going a bit far-, but why is everyone jumping down the poor guys throat? What is Chanukah all about? Pirsumei Nisah- spreading the miracle, we're not supposed to be diminishing it! And yes, I find it quite insulting that amother wrote 'Was this guy Lubavitch?' Yes, and proudly so. He was doing what he felt was right, and im sorry for all you out there that think that 'Chabad goes too far when it comes to spreading the nes of Chanukah' There have been countless of stories of people that have been 'rekindled' because of a Menorah out there! They may not do anything about it, but a spark of their neshama was kindled when they saw the Menorah, even if it was for a split second en route to wherever they may be heading to. Do you not get excited when you see a menorah in a foreign place? As well, this was not to spark anti-semitism of any sort! Not only that, but seeing the ruckus that this caused, the Rabbi asked the airport to put the Trees back up, as he did not want to cause disturbance, yet the airport officials said that at this point they do not want to do so, since the airport is not religiously based. I hope this clarifies some confusion, and although we are all entitled to our own opinions- im kind of shocked at the outburst over here.

Blossom

Tue, Dec 12 2006, 4:14 pm

I agree with Sarahd
although I do think that the Rabbi did not expect such an answer from the airport and had he known this he wouldn't have made his request or threatened to sue. I'm sure he feels terrible now and I feel bad for him.

stem

Tue, Dec 12 2006, 5:17 pm

A chilul Hashem is something that makes the non jews look down on the Jewish people, Hashem, or the Torah. Yes, it can be done inadvertently, but in a case where a jew is taking a non-jew to court, it's a high probability that it will cause a chilul Hashem, which is why a rav has to be consulted.

MommyEsty

Tue, Dec 12 2006, 5:27 pm

the tree was put back up after the rabbi requested and said he would not sue

luv2beamother

Tue, Dec 12 2006, 5:39 pm

All I can say is that it really depresses me that frum women are ridiculing a Rabbi's honest attempt (a person can sue if he desires, if he's wrong, then he'll lose) to spread yiddishkait.

do you really think it takes a public menorah display to cause anti semitism? 6 million jews have died for being jewish- and just for being jewish.

here is a jew wanting to display a menorah for the sake of all the jews out there who don't celebrate chanukah -
why don't you fargin these jews to have some chanukah in their lives.

and why are you worried about what the non jews think? do you live for their opinion? well if you do, many do not respect your religion (this story is proof), so why don't you give up. I know I live for hashem. and so did our avos - avraham smashed his fathers idols - isn't that what you would consider a chilul hashem? well obviously he did what was right.

bandcm

Tue, Dec 12 2006, 5:54 pm

Comment about Avraham smashing the idols - good point.
I am sure the shliach is feeling awful now, and I feel really bad for him.
OF COURSE he did the right thing. Whether or not you all agree, the Lubavitcher Rebbe strongly encouraged public menorah displays as a way of pirsumei nisa and reminding Jews about Chanuka.
This Rabbi, as a Lubavitcher chosid, was trying to fulfil his Rebbe´s directive. That is always the right thing to do.
Have all you posters any idea that often the first thing a shliach will do when he arrives in a city is to petition for the right to put up a public menorah (depending on when he arrives, obviously)?
Take us. We came here only 3 months ago, yet BH we already have secured permission from the mayor´s office to put up a public menorah. Our mazel that we didn´t have to fight for it. How can we condemn the poor shliach who wants to do what the Rebbe wants, but is having it hard?
For all those who are condemning this Rabbi, what have YOU done today to try and spread yiddishkeit?
Because that is all this poor shliach is trying to do.

Crayon210

Tue, Dec 12 2006, 5:57 pm

stem wrote:

Please bring a source for this. I've never heard that a person has to ask a shaila to bring a [gentile] to court.

sarahd

Tue, Dec 12 2006, 6:11 pm

luv2beamother wrote:

All I can say is that it really depresses me that frum women are ridiculing a Rabbi's honest attempt (a person can sue if he desires, if he's wrong, then he'll lose) to spread yiddishkait.

No one is ridiculing him. People are just angry at him for endangering us. I know many think there is nothing to fear, but many others have read the reactions, know some history, and don't understand how anyone can feel so comfortable in this galus that they risk rocking the boat for this sort of thing. Just because America is a medinas hachesed today doesn't mean that things can't change and we really have to be careful not to antagonize the non jews.

Yes, I know that he didn't mean this to happen, but "aizehu chacham? haroeh es hanolad." He could have anticipated that suing the airport was not going to end happily. (Personally, I don't think that any of the lawsuits brought to force municipalities or other public bodies to allow menorahs increased love of Jews. Yes, the Rebbe said to put up menorahs, and I understand why he thought it was important, but did he say to go to any lengths? Force it down people's throats? Sue them if they object?)

luv2beamother

Tue, Dec 12 2006, 6:28 pm

[/quote]

many others have read the reactions, know some history, and don't understand how anyone can feel so comfortable in this galus that they risk rocking the boat for this sort of thing. [/quote]

know some history? I think we all know the same history.
and again, you really suppose that putting up menorahs is what causes antisemitism? I would say that it's those that never heard the word menorah that have given jews throughout the ages, till today, a hard time.

Crayon210

Tue, Dec 12 2006, 6:31 pm

sarahd wrote:

People are just angry at him for endangering us. I know many think there is nothing to fear, but many others have read the reactions, know some history, and don't understand how anyone can feel so comfortable in this galus that they risk rocking the boat for this sort of thing. Just because America is a medinas hachesed today doesn't mean that things can't change and we really have to be careful not to antagonize the non jews.

Of course things can change. But in this country, the legal system is set up that when religions are excluded in public arenas, a person can bring suit.

Also, the person was doing this for a good reason: doing what his Rebbe told him to do! Shluchim around the world fight really hard to get menorahs put up in public places, all with the brachos of the Rebbe. I'm sure the Rebbe is shepping nachas from his persistence.

Quote:

Yes, I know that he didn't mean this to happen, but "aizehu chacham? haroeh es hanolad." He could have anticipated that suing the airport was not going to end happily. (Personally, I don't think that any of the lawsuits brought to force municipalities or other public bodies to allow menorahs increased love of Jews. Yes, the Rebbe said to put up menorahs, and I understand why he thought it was important, but did he say to go to any lengths? Force it down people's throats? Sue them if they object?)

The reason to put up a menorah is not for non jews to love Jews. It's to show Jews their heritage. That's it.

I don't know if the Rebbe ever used the words "go to any lengths", though there is a story about getting menorahs into a prison that I will look for...it involved a great deal of chassidishe chutzpah.

I don't understand where the forcing down people's throats come in. He's not forcing people to light menorahs. He's not forcing people to do anythign. He's asking permission to display a menorah.

Lubavitchers have sued over this countless times. This is not new. The new part is that the airport was so obnoxious as to take down the trees להכעיס, so that the Jews would look bad.

TzenaRena

Tue, Dec 12 2006, 6:33 pm

It's not "the people" who object. People LOVE the public menorahs. it's always the civil liberties unions, the same one who would ban shechita, and milah if they could.

Jews have more respect from the [gentile] when they don't compromise, and don't show fear, or cower.

Dozens, if not hundreds of shluchim have faced obstacles in putting up Public Menorahs. The Rebbe always encouraged them to persevere. There has been one legal victory after another in either defending Menorahs that were already up, or in fighting, appealing for Menorahs to be put up.

These victories are often a nes in their own right, where we see the miracle of Chanukah re-occuring b'zman hazeh.

stem

Tue, Dec 12 2006, 7:14 pm

Crayon210 wrote:

stem wrote:

Please bring a source for this. I've never heard that a person has to ask a shaila to bring a [gentile] to court.

I'm surprised that you would think it's so simple. Anything you do that involves a potential for a serious aveira (esp. in public) should be taken up with a rav first. You can bet that if I was even thinking of suing anyone about anything I would talk about it with a rav first, let alone about something that is so emotionally charged and has a potential to blow up in public.
I'll ask around for an exact source, but it's pretty straight forward halacha and common sense, IMO.

Quote:

For all those who are condemning this Rabbi, what have YOU done today to try and spread yiddishkeit?

How rude! There are many ways to do kiruv in a non-threatening way. It wasn't what he did, but rather how he did it. Obviously, even he knows he made a mistake which is why he retracted his threat. It's people like him that give Jews a bad reputation.

Crayon210

Tue, Dec 12 2006, 7:19 pm

stem wrote:

Crayon210 wrote:

stem wrote:

Please bring a source for this. I've never heard that a person has to ask a shaila to bring a [gentile] to court.

I don't think this is common sense, and I don't think it makes any sense. What aveira would be committed? Just because non jews don't like Jews doesn't mean that an action that makes them like us less is a chilul Hashem.

Quote:

For all those who are condemning this Rabbi, what have YOU done today to try and spread yiddishkeit?

This is a very rude comment.

He didn't try to "do kiruv in a non-threatening way". He wanted to display a menorah, and when he was told he couldn't, he wanted to take legal action, as is his right in this country.

He does not give Jews a bad reputation. If it were up to some people on this site, Jews wouldn't have any reputation, they would hide under a rock. CHV we should be seen. Rolling Eyes

stem

Tue, Dec 12 2006, 7:37 pm

1. So you're saying, since they don't like us already, we might as well do things to purposely make them like us less?

2. I said it before: the aveira is "chilul Hashem" - it's a biggie. Even for 2 Jews to sue each other in secular court it's a problem for this reason.

3. He sure did give the Jews a bad reputation, and he did act in an aggressive, threatening way to achieve his kiruv goal. It's like winning the battle but losing the war.

P.S. Maybe it would be preferable to live under a rock instead of creating the worldwide backlash like the one in Seattle. Lighting a menora in public is not one of the 613, there was no reason to go to such extremes just to prove a point.

It's okay to not agree crayon, I'm done repeating myself...

Crayon210

Tue, Dec 12 2006, 7:52 pm

stem wrote:

1. So you're saying, since they don't like us already, we might as well do things to purposely make them like us less?

No, I'm saying that when we want to do the right thing, we don't have to worry about what the non jews are going to say.

Quote:

2. I said it before: the aveira is "chilul Hashem" - it's a biggie. Even for 2 Jews to sue each other in secular court it's a problem for this reason.

I don't see the CH here. I see that non-Jews won't like the Jews, but oh well, that happens all the time.

Two Jews suing each other in secular court is a different problem, AFAIK, it's not about CH.

Quote:

3. He sure did give the Jews a bad reputation, and he did act in an aggressive, threatening way to achieve his kiruv goal. It's like winning the battle but losing the war.

I don't think he gave Jews a bad reputation. The airport manipulated the situation to make him look bad, and people were willing to go along with that.

Suing is not aggressive and threatening. Killing the airport manager is aggressive and threatening.

Quote:

P.S. Maybe it would be preferable to live under a rock instead of creating the worldwide backlash like the one in Seattle. Lighting a menora in public is not one of the 613, there was no reason to go to such extremes just to prove a point.

Worldwide backlash? Are you kidding? Are you hiding in the closet with canned goods because the Cossacks are coming? Please.

He didn't want the public menorah because it's a mitzvah. It has nothing to do with fulfilling a mitzvah. It has to do with bringing Yiddishkeit to the Jews, no matter where they are or what they're doing. So that the Jew who visits his non-Jewish mother-in-law and sings carols for "the holidays" will pass by a menorah in the airport, which will at least make him think Jewish thoughts for a few seconds.

It's worth it.

He didn't want to prove a point. He wanted to show Jews Judaism.

TzenaRena

Tue, Dec 12 2006, 8:13 pm

I spoke to my husband about this. He said that the shliach of course did the right thing and not only is it not a Chillul hashem, but he made a Kiddush Hashem! And he should have sued even and especially after they took down their trees.

amother

Tue, Dec 12 2006, 9:36 pm

Quote:

Press Release:

Source: Chabad of Greater Seattle
Statement by Chabad of Greater Seattle on Removal of x-mas Trees From
Seattle-Tacoma Airport Monday December 11, 4:49 pm ET

SEATTLE, Dec. 11 /PRNewswire/ -- We are dismayed that officials at the
Seattle Port Commission have chosen to remove the x-mas trees from the
Seattle-Tacoma International Airport, since this was never our intent. The
request by Chabad of Greater Seattle was not to remove the x-mas trees,
but simply to add the Menorah -- and the Port Commission's decision to take
down the x-mas trees caught us by complete surprise.

We believe that everyone should enjoy the spirit of the holidays, and for
many people, the x-mas tree is an important symbol of the season. Our
goal was to include a Menorah in the airport as well so that we could bring
extra light with Chanukah's universal message of hope.

Our discussion of possible legal action was never about removing x-mas
trees -- it was about protecting the right to add Menorahs.

Chabad of Greater Seattle has no intention to file a lawsuit at this time,
and hopes the Seattle Port Commission will act to ensure that the
Seattle-Tacoma International Airport includes a range of holiday decorations
to proclaim the warm, positive spirit of the season.

x-mas trees are going back up at Sea-Tac airport

By Janet I. Tu and Lornet Turnbull
Seattle Times staff reporters

The holiday trees that went away in the middle of the night are back.

Tonight, Port of Seattle staff began putting up the trees they had taken
down Friday night after a local rabbi requested that a Hanukkah menorah
also be displayed. Port officials said the rabbi's lawyer had threatened
to imminently file a lawsuit, leaving them with insufficient time to
consider all the issues.

A nationwide furor erupted over the weekend as news of the trees'
removal spread, with a flood of calls to Port officials and harshly
worded e-mails to Jewish organizations. Today, Rabbi Elazar Bogomilsky
said he would not file a lawsuit and the Port, in response, said it
would put the trees back up.

"This has been an unfortunate situation for all of us in Seattle," Port
of Seattle Commission President Pat Davis said in a statement. "The
rabbi never asked us to remove the trees; it was the Port's decision
based on what we knew at the time. We very much appreciate the rabbi's
willingness to work with us as we move forward."

A menorah will not be displayed this year.

Port spokesman Bob Parker said "we look forward to sitting down after
the first of the year with not only Rabbi Bogomilsky but others as well,
and finding ways to make sure there's an appropriate winter holiday
representation for all faiths. We want to find out a way to celebrate
the winter holidays that is sensitive to all faiths."

Bogomilsky, who works with Chabad-Lubavitch, an Orthodox Jewish outreach
organization, said, "Like people from all cultures and religions, we're
thrilled the trees are going back up."

But he said he was disappointed that Port officials chose not to put up
the menorah as well, pointing out there are still several days until the
start of Hannukah. "I still hope that they'll consider putting the
menorah up this year. But ultimately it's their decision."

He also said he hopes the Port will apologize for mischaracterizations
that led people to believe he was against having the trees displayed.

"At the end of the day it's not about trees, but adding light to the
holiday, not diminishing any light."

At the airport tonight, Matt Bachleda of Snohomish was playing cards
while waiting for his daughter to arrive from Paris. He was surprised to
see Port staff putting a tree back up in the baggage claim area.

"It looks like x-mas is back," he said.

The reaction to the trees' removal had been swift and vociferous. News
outlets nationwide picked up the story.

"There's been such an outcry from the public - from people of all faiths
- who believe that the trees should be reinstalled," Davis said. "I'm
very thankful that we can return the trees and get back to running our
airport during this very busy holiday season."

Port Commissioner John Creighton said he had been swamped with e-mails,
99.9 percent of which supported putting the trees put back up.

"I'm overjoyed as to the resolution," Creighton said. "I'm very happy we
were able to reach an agreement that was acceptable to the rabbi and to
us."

Creighton said he personally would've preferred the airport also put up
a menorah this year. But "there's a fair amount of sensitvity at the
airport. Whatever we do, we do after putting some thought into it."

The situation began rather quietly back in late October or early
November when Mitchell Stein, a construction consultant for the Port,
contacted a Port staffer saying he'd like to put up a large menorah near
the x-mas tree at the international arrival hall.

Stein, who is Jewish and is friends with Bogomilsky, said he thought it
would be a "great opportunity for the Port to show their joy and
commitment to diversity."

Over the next several weeks, though, he said, he was referred to several
different people on staff, who told him different things about whether a
menorah would be allowed.

Stein said Harvey Grad, the rabbi's attorney, contacted the Port last
week and sent officials there a legal brief as a way of spurring action,
given that Hanukkah was coming up, and to let the Port know the legal
precedents involved in the issue.

It was not intended to be threatening, Stein said. When Port
commissioners "told us just before Shabbat that they were taking down
all the x-mas trees, we were totally aghast."

But some Port commissioners said they first heard about a threatened
lawsuit Thursday.

"From what we were made to understand, if we didn't accede to the
group's demands," they would file a lawsuit by the next day, Creighton
said. "At the time, it seemed to be a reasonable solution to remove the
x-mas trees."

Not only the Port, but local Jewish organizations, felt the consequences
of that decision.

Robert Jacobs, regional director of the Anti-Defamation League, said
about 14 organizations or rabbis had reported receiving hate e-mail. On
Monday, his organization was advising local Jewish institutions that
have received significant numbers of hate e-mails to consider having
security during Hannukah and other holiday season events.

This is not the first public clash over the traditional symbols of
x-mas.

For years, judges - including those of the U.S. Supreme Court - have
been sorting out disputes over how nativity scenes and x-mas trees
can be displayed in the lobbies of public buildings, in downtown plazas
and in parks.

The furor has been building for years. Last month, the Alliance Defense
Fund, a religion-based legal aid group in Arizona, announced it had
lined up an army of attorneys who were prepared to defend the tradition
of x-mas in schools and on public property.

"Frankly, it's ridiculous that Americans have to think twice about
whether it's okay to say 'Merry x-mas,'" the group's president Alan
Sears said.

Federal law prohibits government entities from endorsing any religious
symbols, proselytizing for religion or preferring any one religion over
another, said John Strait, an associate professor of law at Seattle
University.

He said the x-mas holiday has become so secular that many symbols
associated with it, such as the x-mas tree, have simply become
symbols of the holiday. But legal debates rage over just how religious
some symbols, such as the nativity scene, actually are. Strait said the
menorah has achieved about the same religious status as a nativity
scene.

Stewart Jay, a law professor at the University of Washington, admits
that the rules aren't always so clear. A holiday display, he said, is
allowed as long as it mixes several holiday symbols and traditions.

The Port of Seattle, Strait and Jay agree, could have allowed the
menorah along with its x-mas tree in such a way that it would not
have been an endorsement of religion. "And that would have been the end
of it," Strait said.

In fact, the x-mas trees on their own might have been problematic,
Jay said. Adding a menorahmight have given the Port some legal cover.

Across Washington, holiday displays and celebrations reflect the
diversity of ways public and private bodies have found to recognize the
holidays.

Each year - for many years - Seattle City Hall has featured a x-mas
tree, menorah and Kwanzaa display, the mayor's spokeswoman, Marianne
Bichsel said. "We want to make sure that however people choose to
celebrate this time of year, that it is honored," she said.

In many school districts across the state, including Seattle and
Bellevue, any holiday program or decorations must be tied to curriculum,
officials there said.

The city of Redmond celebrates the season with displays of evergreen
branches with white lights, poinsettias and wreathes inside City Hall.
Outside, an evergreen tree, part of the city's landscaping, is decorated
with multi-colored lights.

King County opts for "giving trees" in the lobby of the court house and
the county administrative building. The trees include the names and gift
wishes of people in need during the holiday, spokeswoman Carolyn Dunkin
said.

Last year, a Catholic lawmaker from Spokane and his supporters stirred
up a hornets' nest when they sang x-mas carols in front of the giant
holiday tree that dominates the Capitol rotunda in Olympia. Rep. John
Ahern, a Republican, said the Washington-grown fir is a holiday tree,
not a x-mas tree.

Next week, following a lighting ceremony, a menorah will accompany that
tree in the rotunda, said Steve Valandra spokesman for department of
general administration, which oversees the capitol grounds

Flowerchild

Tue, Dec 12 2006, 9:39 pm

I feel sick very sick, I just read the aol article on this and read the posts that followed (have no idea what possessed me to do so) and I wish moshiah was here already, there is so much sick, disturbing hatred, and this Rabbi, whether he was right or wrong just added fuel to the fire. the majority of people hate us and the only ones who respond in favor are either jews themselves or christians who have some respect left for us. I feel like going to israel and joining the army

chavamom

Tue, Dec 12 2006, 11:07 pm

luv2beamother wrote:

All I can say is that it really depresses me that frum women are ridiculing a Rabbi's honest attempt (a person can sue if he desires, if he's wrong, then he'll lose) to spread yiddishkait.

here is a jew wanting to display a menorah for the sake of all the jews out there who don't celebrate chanukah -
why don't you fargin these jews to have some chanukah in their lives.

and why are you worried about what the non jews think? do you live for their opinion? well if you do, many do not respect your religion (this story is proof), so why don't you give up. I know I live for hashem. and so did our avos - avraham smashed his fathers idols - isn't that what you would consider a chilul hashem? well obviously he did what was right.

See, I think that a lot of people are creating a false dicotomy here (putting it up in the airport vs. not putting it up at all). He could put up his menorah any number of places. And Chabad does this all over - at shopping malls, ice rinks, etc. Public places where they have made arrangements to do so. However, to FORCE someone to do so, that is where you are tredding on thin ice. I think many who are coming from a Chabad POV are missing the point that others are making (myself included) in that there is no mitzvah in angering non jews ("I'll have my menorah where I want it or I'll SUE you" is not going to win friends) and ignores the fact that there is a real problem here.