Trees removed at Seattle Airport

amother

Wed, Dec 13 2006, 12:17 am

"Pardon the French, but this is ridiculous. We Jews need to fight for the right not to work on Shabbos, right. We need to fight for the right to adhere to halacha in the workplace, right. We do NOT need to fight for the right to put a menorah in the town square. We need to realize that we're a minority in a medinas chesed, that no one is stopping us from putting menoros in our windows, on our lawns or on the roof of our cars...and even in many airports around the country -- and be grateful for what we have!!!!!!!"

Sarahd, I completely disagree with you. You can't just stop and be happy with where you are holding in life. I don't think there was anything wrong with it and quite frankly, I don't think it's anyone's business.

Crayon210

Wed, Dec 13 2006, 12:43 am

chavamom wrote:

See, I think that a lot of people are creating a false dicotomy here (putting it up in the airport vs. not putting it up at all). He could put up his menorah any number of places. And Chabad does this all over - at shopping malls, ice rinks, etc. Public places where they have made arrangements to do so.

That's what the rabbi wanted to do...

Quote:

However, to FORCE someone to do so, that is where you are tredding on thin ice.

He didn't force anyone to do anything. He expressed his intention to file a law suit if they didn't allow for his holiday symbol to be displayed. If the airport was in the right, they would have won the suit and that would be the end (after appeals, etc., which is also legitimate). If he was in the right, he would have won. I don't see where the force is. Confused

Quote:

I think many who are coming from a Chabad POV are missing the point that others are making (myself included) in that there is no mitzvah in angering non jews ("I'll have my menorah where I want it or I'll SUE you" is not going to win friends) and ignores the fact that there is a real problem here.

No one said there's a mitzvah to anger non jews.

Someone wants to expose Jews to Judaism. He didn't want to anger non jews, he wanted to bring Yiddishkeit to the public Jewish eye.

There is not a real problem here. There will not be a pogrom as a result of Jews doing what they are supposed to do: publicizing the miracle of Chanukah.

Crayon210

Wed, Dec 13 2006, 12:53 am

chavamom wrote:

If it were an issue of halacha, amother, I'd agree. But it's not. You are arguing for public displays of relgion on gov't property. It's a very different arguement and a far more tenuous one.

No, the argument is for equal representation of religions.

It is considered inappropriate in this country for one religion to be visible and the others to be told to go home.

chavamom

Wed, Dec 13 2006, 12:57 am

The supreme court has argued that trees (deemed secular) are not the same as nativity sets (obviously religious). Do we really want to say that menorahs are a secular symbol? And why dafka there? Let the menorah be at some other spot - a shopping mall, in front of a dept. store - rather than in a place where there is a valid legal question.

sarahd

Wed, Dec 13 2006, 7:31 am

Quote:

Not only the Port, but local Jewish organizations, felt the consequences
of that decision.

Robert Jacobs, regional director of the Anti-Defamation League, said
about 14 organizations or rabbis had reported receiving hate e-mail. On
Monday, his organization was advising local Jewish institutions that
have received significant numbers of hate e-mails to consider having
security during Hannukah and other holiday season events.

Isn't that lovely. Nothing to do with the menorah fiasco, I guess.

sarahd

Wed, Dec 13 2006, 7:36 am

Crayon210 wrote:

stem wrote:

2. I said it before: the aveira is "chilul Hashem" - it's a biggie. Even for 2 Jews to sue each other in secular court it's a problem for this reason.

I don't see the CH here. I see that non-Jews won't like the Jews, but oh well, that happens all the time.

Two Jews suing each other in secular court is a different problem, AFAIK, it's not about CH.

Actually, I believe that the problem in going to erchaos (secular courts) is chilul Hashem, because the parties to the court case are implying that they can't get a fair settlement in Bais Din or that Torah law is not capable of solving their problem, but I never heard that it's a problem for a Jew to take a non-Jew to court. How likely is it that a non-Jew will agree to go to Bais Din to settle a case? OTOH, before suing a non-Jew a person might want to consult with his advisors to find out how good an idea it is.

amother

Wed, Dec 13 2006, 2:54 pm

Crayon, I wonder how you have so much time to argue with everyone. You just rip peoples comments apart and you don't seem to listen to anyone, you just retaliate! It makes it very hard to have a conversation, instead everything feels like a big argument!
And your pogrom comments are really getting to me. I wish we all had your confidence that no Jews will be hurt by this event, but the hate mail that Jewish organizations have been getting makes me more than nervous...

shalhevet

Wed, Dec 13 2006, 5:42 pm

Quote:

Bogomilsky, who works with Chabad-Lubavitch, an Orthodox Jewish outreach
organization, said, "Like people from all cultures and religions, we're
thrilled the trees are going back up."

Is that what a rabbi is supposed to say? That he is thrilled that a symbol of avoda zara is going up? Why on earth does he have to say anything at all? And if he got himself into such a corner that he had to say this to be PC then I really wonder why he did what he did.

Crayon210

Wed, Dec 13 2006, 6:43 pm

shalhevet wrote:

Quote:

Bogomilsky, who works with Chabad-Lubavitch, an Orthodox Jewish outreach
organization, said, "Like people from all cultures and religions, we're
thrilled the trees are going back up."

That was my (and my husband's) response also. I don't question his motives, though. But I do think what he said was wrong.

Crayon210

Wed, Dec 13 2006, 6:49 pm

amother wrote:

Crayon, I wonder how you have so much time to argue with everyone. You just rip peoples comments apart and you don't seem to listen to anyone, you just retaliate!

Don't lose too much sleep worrying about how I have time to do this or that.

If I rip comments apart, then how am I not listening? Or does listening=agreeing?

Quote:

It makes it very hard to have a conversation, instead everything feels like a big argument!

Not over here it doesn't.

Quote:

And your pogrom comments are really getting to me. I wish we all had your confidence that no Jews will be hurt by this event, but the hate mail that Jewish organizations have been getting makes me more than nervous...

I'm sorry you don't like my comments. That's part of life.

MommyLuv

Wed, Dec 13 2006, 7:28 pm

shalhevet wrote:

Quote:

Bogomilsky, who works with Chabad-Lubavitch, an Orthodox Jewish outreach
organization, said, "Like people from all cultures and religions, we're
thrilled the trees are going back up."

Come on, he had to say that. You all know that too! Give the guy some credit. It's all for the public eye. I'm sure he probably doesnt really care about the trees, like most of us who would rather Moshiach be here and only holiness everywhere and Chanukah menorahs taking the place of Xmas trees.

Given the situation, he probably had no choice.

shalhevet

Thu, Dec 14 2006, 4:04 am

MommyLuv wrote:

shalhevet wrote:

Quote:

Bogomilsky, who works with Chabad-Lubavitch, an Orthodox Jewish outreach
organization, said, "Like people from all cultures and religions, we're
thrilled the trees are going back up."

Everyone has a choice. He didn't have to say anything. And to me it's an enormous chilul Hashem.