Coming to a simcha empty handed

amother

Thu, May 03 2012, 5:49 pm

I just made a simcha for my child. I could count on my hands and toes how many guests walked in empty handed. These same guests I went to their simchos with gifts for their children. I gave these people baby gifts for each child, bar mitzvah gifts and wedding gifts. I even gave charity in their honor when they were honored. And these people did not even give my child a gift worth a dollar. I know you are not making a simcha for the gifts. I was wondering what your opinion is on this. I feel like walking in to all their simchos in the future empty handed now.

Alef Bais

Thu, May 03 2012, 6:51 pm

Many people nowadays cannot afford to bring gifts to every simcha they attend. They'd feel really cheap only bringing something worth a dollar and rather not bring anything. Some might still give something later on when they have a little extra money. Often people will only give gifts when they are really close to the baal simcha and not just for every single acquaintance and neighbor who invites them to an affair.

b from nj

Thu, May 03 2012, 7:18 pm

Many people don't get around to giving gifts till long after the Simcha is over. We got gifts even a year after my children's simchas had passed. On the bright side, you/your child doesn't have to deal with too many thank you cards but I'm sure you'd be happy to deal with the thank you cards & get the gifts that you feel you 'deserve'. Then again, it's never good to assume that you will get gifts & instead be pleasantly surprised when they come your way but I know that is easier said than done!

Mazal tov on the Simcha & hopefully you & your child will be pleasantly surprised soon!

amother

Thu, May 03 2012, 7:54 pm

To the OP
Unfortunately the times have changed.
Years ago it was unacceptable to go sit down and eat a meal without bringing a gift.
Today, most people do NOT give gifts, and you should do the same from now on, unless you really want to give and think of it as tzedaka. Its a combination of the bad economy, too many simchas BH, and a few other factors.
It may be hard for you to do it the first time (as it was for me) but I decided I was no longer going to be the only fool in town. I would rather just give the money to my children, and behave as selfishly as they do.

At my last child's occasion, we paid for over 500 couples to sit down and eat, and we only received gifts from 50 of them. That is 10%. Average gift was in the $50 range.
For a simcha that cost us over $25,000 the couple received about $2,500. And a few pieces of glass etc.

Many people we know today choose to make $5000 weddings, with everything done at the lowest cost.
Therefore, they don't expect any gifts. If the couple makes $500 then they consider it nice.
I am using real numbers from mine and close relatives recent experiences.

As parents, we choose what type of wedding to make, and that is our gift to our children.
If our friends and relatives want to/can afford to give then its okay, if not, who cares?
This is the reality, whether we like it or not.

chocolate moose

Thu, May 03 2012, 8:57 pm

I would hate to make a party and have no one come, just because of a gift.

There were years that I went into debt for gifts and that had to stop. When I could afford it, I started giving gifts again. Each situation is very different.

Thu, May 03 2012, 9:11 pm

I suppose it depends on your circles.

In my extended family and community, gifts are always given. It would not occur to me not to give a gift if invited to a simcha: a token if we don't attend or if we don't know the honoree personally, and a more substantial gift if we do. Typically we mail a check so it doesn't get lost at the event. We are generally only invited to a few events a year (more during the bar/bat mitzvah years), so it isn't so burdensome financially.

If people in your circles are invited to many simchas - if all your friends and neighbors have large families or tend to have very large guest lists, the "rules" might be quite different.

amother

Thu, May 03 2012, 9:41 pm

OP here. I wasn't expecting to make back the money we paid. I wasn't expecting gifts from Rabbi's at all. But I was very suprised of the friends that we spent hundreds of dollars of gifts over the years on their children and they came in empty handed. It will be weird going to their simchas in June without a check in my hand. But I don't feel like being a sucker anymore.
Question: Would you continue giving the Rabbi's kids gifts too?

amother

Thu, May 03 2012, 9:41 pm

amother

Fri, May 04 2012, 11:39 am

amother wrote:

Only if I made it out to the Rabbi or congregation and wrote it off as charity. That is only if I had the extra charity money and felt like doing that. Without any strings attached.

The same way your friends no longer come bearing gifts, you are not obligated. They want to see you and have you share in the simcha, but the gift is not the important part of it all. Not any longer.

Tova

Fri, May 04 2012, 12:22 pm

MaBelleVie wrote:

It's rude. If you don't think you are close enough to give a gift, you aren't close enough to show up and eat a meal on their dime either.

No it's not. If we invite you to our simcha (a simcha! What a zchus to be baalei simcha) we want YOU there. I host you with pleasure and gratitude. I know that the simchos we are invited to the baalei simcha really want us there and don't care about any gift.

causemommysaid

Fri, May 04 2012, 12:32 pm

well I happen to not be able to afford giving a gift to every person who invites me to an event.

even if the gift is only an 18 dollar check I will have spent hundreds of dollars I dont have. (and I'll be labeled as cheap for only giving 18)

I never expect gifts when pple come to my simchas and I still want them to come. it makes me happy to have my friends and family around for my simcha. their presence is the gift.

if you are inviting me and expecting I give you something in order to come- let me know and I'll rsvp in the negative.

oh and one more thing- I live out of town so most likely me coming to your simcha is costing me gas, tolls, and 10-12 hours of babysitting. thats about $150 right there.

MaBelleVie

Fri, May 04 2012, 12:32 pm

Tova wrote:

MaBelleVie wrote:

It's rude. If you don't think you are close enough to give a gift, you aren't close enough to show up and eat a meal on their dime either.

I'm not speaking from the baal simcha's perspective- I've been there too, and honestly it's just a great feeling to have people come and participate in your simcha. I have never begrudged someone for not giving a gift.

On my end as a guest, though, I would never do it. It would just feel rude and in poor etiquette. I assume most people invite me because they want to share their simcha with me, but the thing to do is give a gift too. Maybe its just my personal weirdness? I dunno.

Raisin

Fri, May 04 2012, 12:38 pm

amother wrote:

huh? Your rabbis children are not a tzedaka. If you are giving money to the rabbis shul or organisation you can give it as charity, but not a personal gift to him or his children.

I always try and give a gift. even though my dh is the rabbi so apparantly it is ok not to.

shlomitsmum

Fri, May 04 2012, 12:52 pm

Tova wrote:

MaBelleVie wrote:

It's rude. If you don't think you are close enough to give a gift, you aren't close enough to show up and eat a meal on their dime either.

I am with Tova ....it should only be about the simcha , these are tough times ! Try to be DLZ Op and don't "get even" at future simchas just give what you can afford and only IF you can afford it.

ElTam

Fri, May 04 2012, 1:15 pm

Honestly, this attitude really bothers me. I'm not up to the point of making big simchas, but if I invite my kids' friends for a birthday party, I don't notice who does and does not bring a gift, except for writing down who did so we can send a thank you note. I didn't care who did and didn't bring a baby gift when my kids were born or by the bris.

People are B"H invited to A LOT of simchas. And families are struggling financially. As someone said, coming to your simcha, even if it isn't for the meal, is going to set people back a significant amount of money. For me, I am going to spend at least $35 on a sitter, and that's if I am only invited for the chuppah and leave right after the first dance. If you are not inviting the person because you really want them to share in your simcha, then don't invite them. Make a smaller simcha and use the extra $$$ to buy your kid whatever it is you think your guests should have purchased.

Fox

Fri, May 04 2012, 1:30 pm

cm wrote:

I suppose it depends on your circles.

Friedasima and I once went 'round and 'round about this for approximately 26 pages. The ultimate conclusion was: "It depends on your circles."

In FS's circles, chassunahs are really community events -- everyone is invited, and everyone "contributes" through a gift, preferably money. Not giving a gift is an indication that you are either facing horrific financial problems or are utterly clueless.

In my circles, it's considered tacky to think about gifts at all. You make whatever kind of chassunah you want or can afford, and if people give gifts, you pretend to be pleasantly surprised. People are extremely closed-mouthed about giving and receiving gifts -- sometimes I think it's more socially acceptable to discuss s-x than to discuss chassunah gifts!

With the possible exception of a discreet envelope handed to the chosson or his designate, gifts are virtually never given at the chassunah itself -- people consider that uber-tacky! Checks are generally mailed and other items are generally purchased online and shipped.

As to whether you should change your own gift-giving behavior, it depends. If you enjoy giving gifts and can afford to do so, then by all means continue. But it sounds like your current circles do not necessarily equate simcha attendance with gift-giving, so realize that there will likely be no quid pro quo for any gifts you give.