Coming to a simcha empty handed

Log in / Sign Up

List of Forums + New Post Recipe Box Usergroups Following My Posts Bookmarks

Private Messages Advanced Search Rules New User Guide FAQ Advertise Contact Us

Forum -> Relationships -> Giving Gifts

Previous 1 2 3 4 5 Next

View latest: 24h 48h 72h

Fri, May 04 2012, 2:32 pm

ysmommy wrote:

even if the gift is only an 18 dollar check I will have spent hundreds of dollars I dont have. (and I'll be labeled as cheap for only giving 18)

Not at all! $18 is a nice gift.

We have received gifts ranging from quite low to hundreds of dollars. The amounts don't seem to correlate at all to anything - not perceived wealth/class of the giver nor relationship to the recipient. Whatever it is, is fine and appreciated.

Some people make donations to tzedaka as a gift, and that is lovely too. The acknowledgement sent to the honoree never mentions the amount donated.

Anyone who is thinking about recouping the cost of the simcha party - don't. It really doesn't work that way, unless you are an independent adult making your own wedding.

ElTam

Fri, May 04 2012, 2:48 pm

chocolate moose, I agree with you, but there are many circles in which that would be looked on with horror as being little and tacky.

B"H in our community gifts are never brought to a simcha. They are given before or after. And people most certainly don't talk about it.

My4Jewels

Fri, May 04 2012, 2:49 pm

OP you seem to only be giving your friends gifts for their simchas because you expect a gift back from them. In my opinion gifts should be given because you want to give the person a gift not because you expect a gift back. Seems like a backwards way to give to somebody to me. I give gifts when I can and spend what I can. Sometimes I just can't. Sometimes good friends get me gifts and sometimes not. I do not believe gift giving is a reflection on the status of a friendship. Not for me anyways. For me friendships are about supporting eachother, listening to eachother when we need to vent, pitching in when we are sick..it's so not about who gave what gift to who.

That's just my 2 cents Smile

chocolate moose

Fri, May 04 2012, 3:57 pm

ElTam wrote:

chocolate moose, I agree with you, but there are many circles in which that would be looked on with horror as being little and tacky.

Maybe if you put a ten and a five and three ones in an envelope and gave it like that, it wouldn't be fabulous.

But if you bought a cookbook at The Strand or a nice piece of crystal at Century 21 or another discount place, wrapped it up and gave it with a card? I think it's nice.

ElTam

Fri, May 04 2012, 4:19 pm

I do too, chocolate moose.

But many people who don't look at it that way. In general, I give a check, because people don't register in my circles. And, so many couples go to Israel for a year or more after they are married. I figure they can use the cash more, even if it isn't a huge amount, it helps. I remember taking a gift to the house of one of my husband's chavrusahs when they married off a child. The mother said something about putting it in storage in the basement with the rest of the gifts. Since then, unless I know the kallah myself and have a sense of something she would like, I give a check.

amother

Fri, May 04 2012, 4:41 pm

OP here
I don't give gifts to get back in return. I was raised in a home where my parents always gave gifts and never walked in to an occassion empty handed. I also paid for babysitters when I went to my friends simchos and still gave a gift. And I gave gifts when it was financially hard for us.
Its funny because these friends that came in empty handed talk about the gifts their kids received to me on the phone. So its okay for them to take but they don't have to give? I guess I am old fashioned.

amother

Sat, May 05 2012, 2:44 pm

My brother recently got married & we couldn't afford to buy them even a simple gift, as much as I wanted to Sad

If I have to feel embarrassed to come w/o a gift, I'm sorry, but I just can't join your simcha.

Tablepoetry

Sat, May 05 2012, 3:02 pm

Like Fox said earlier, it depends on the circles. Where I am in Israel no one dreams of coming to a wedding empty handed (unless, like Fox summarized so well from a past thread, they are destitute or socially handicapped/clueless). No one. I've held several bar/bat mitzvot so far, hundreds of guests in total, and I don't think I had even one guest show up empty handed, child or adult.

However, I can understand that social norms may be changing in some countries. If it's become acceptable not to give a gift, that's the way it is. I'm not sure I could do it, I would feel really uncomfortable, but eventually it would sink in. If no one gives gifts, it becomes over the top to give. I don't understand all the posters who say you should just give as you feel and disregard what the person gave you in the past, disregard general social norms, etc. We live in a cultural context, nothing is done in a vacuum. I may love my neighbour but I'm not going to write her a 500 NIS check for her bar mitzvah if she gave my son nothing and no one in our circles gives anything (hypothetical situation, since people here do give checks). Why on earth would I do that?

Last edited by Tablepoetry on Sat, May 05 2012, 4:02 pm; edited 1 time in total

freidasima

Sat, May 05 2012, 3:45 pm

As Fox said, it very much depends on the circles.
Here in EY in most circles it would really be unacceptable to go to a simcha and not give something. First, because it is a community thing as she wrote and second, because that's the norm. One makes a big simcha and invites everyone knowing that one gets back some of the cost or that it goes to the kids, and then parents can give the kids less to start off life and everyone gets to share in the simacha.

BUT..that's a chasuneh. The problem exists in Bar mitzvahs where a lot of people, here as well, give little gifts that in no way cover the cost of the simcha. So in a bar mitzva one doesn't usually expect to get back the cost of the simcha as one does in a chasuneh. And at times people give really dinky gifts, which is why a lot of people have started going away for bar mitzvahs, inviting only close friends and family instead of the whole kehilla and velt, and then taking like 20 rooms at a very inexpensive hotel or guest house, having one's own minyan and then usually most people cover the cost of the rooms as it is family (parents, uncles, aunts, married first cousins, etc.) and people push all the little kids together (of same gender) in one room (think: six kids) to save money etc.

However if one is making a Bar mitzva let's say, it's not acceptable here not to show up with something. A sefer at least, even pocket mishnayos which aren't expensive but are at least a token.

So...what do you do now that you made your simcha and people didn't give? I would say just what you wrote, not to be a sucker and not to give those people, while giving those who gave. We - like many - keep lists of who gave what, so as to reciprocate in kind. Again, if someone is really down on their luck and gave a pittance we certainly wouldn't do a "tit for tat" with them as we would understand that it was finster economic mazel that made them be forced to do that. But if it was just being miserly? Well, I'm not going to be their sucker back. And if someone who isn't rich really went out of their way to give my kid something very special (or expensive, not always the same thing), I would definitely want to mark it down in order to be able to reciprocate in kind and when their turn comes, to either give more than usual or look for something really special for their kid as they did for mine.

What comes around goes around. If it is normal that no one gives and only you give, you are doing something wrong. If it is some who give and others who don't? Then give to those who gave and not to those who didn't. So I would do in your circumstances.

Raisin

Sat, May 05 2012, 6:02 pm

FS, for my dds bas mitzva she got a lot of very nice gifts (watches, seforim, jewellery) and also money and giftcards. She spent the giftcards, uses most of the gifts, and we stuck the money in a savings account. Iyh when it matures she will have a nice sum to use for education, or to start off married life.

I was very happy to be able to celebrate her bas mitsva with the whole community.

Dandelion1

Sat, May 05 2012, 11:00 pm

My4Jewels wrote:

I don't think that is what op is doing at all.

Hashemlovesme

Sun, May 06 2012, 12:41 am

Friedasima, I think it's very acceptable/understandable here in E"Y for ppl to come without a gift.

israelimom

Sun, May 06 2012, 1:14 am

FS wrote: What comes around goes around. If it is normal that no one gives and only you give, you are doing something wrong. If it is some who give and others who don't? Then give to those who gave and not to those who didn't. So I would do in your circumstances.[b]

Isn't this the very essence of those lavin that we read in Parashat Kedoshim? As quoted from the VBM:
The Yad Ha-ketana, as paraphrased by Rav Daniel Feldman in his The Right and the Good (p. 98), explains as follows:

These prohibitions [of lo tikom and lo titor] are specifically geared toward occurrences of everyday life, events in the annals of interpersonal relationships that arouse annoyance and irritation rather than physical harm or destruction of property. In the case of the latter, the Torah has assigned responsibility and ordered restitution, recognizing that the world will not function properly if matters of such gravity are not addressed. However, of that which remains, we are told almost by default to forgive and forget. Were every minor incident taken to heart, allowed to evolve into a full-blown feud, the consequences to a harmonious existence would be disastrous. The prohibitions against nekimah [revenge] and netirah [bearing a grudge], then, serve to alleviate the malevolent tensions that too often arise from the most banal of daily disagreements.

Perhaps we would do best to give what we can, even if it's a heartfelt card, and embrace the spirit of the simcha -- promoting goodwill and pleasantness always, not keeping score.

Tablepoetry

Sun, May 06 2012, 6:18 am

Hashemlovesme wrote:

Friedasima, I think it's very acceptable/understandable here in E"Y for ppl to come without a gift.

Perhaps it depends on your circles. I have never ever seen it done. Maybe in anglo circles? Or charedi circles? I wouldn't know.

Tablepoetry

Sun, May 06 2012, 6:32 am

israelimom wrote:

Perhaps we would do best to give what we can, even if it's a heartfelt card, and embrace the spirit of the simcha -- promoting goodwill and pleasantness always, not keeping score.

I don't see how this works in the real world. There are social codes for a reason - so people know what to expect and others know what to do.
How am I supposed to guess what to give another person if we are operating only by warm and fuzzy codes of 'do what feels good'? Should I give my best friend a card? A polyester tablecloth? $50? 100? 1000? And how is she supposed to relate to what I give her, if there is no cultural norm for gift giving?

This works for many gift giving situations. Let's say a kid's birthday party. I've lived in cities/circles where a 10 year old was only expected to give something from the shekel shop for a classmates' birthday; in a city where a 10 year olds usually gave 30 NIS gifts; and in a place where the norm was 50-100 NIS per gift. Now assuming my financial situation is the same in all three cities, and the birthday kid is a best friend, how should I know what kind of gift to buy?? Social norms serve as very useful guidelines.

Now OF COURSE there are situations where one cannot or does not want to live up to social guidelines. But to say we can ignore them completely? Why would I want to send my kid with a 100 NIS gift for a birthday when everyone else bought something for one shekel at the shekel shop?

chani8

Sun, May 06 2012, 6:47 am

Tablepoetry wrote:

Hashemlovesme wrote:

Friedasima, I think it's very acceptable/understandable here in E"Y for ppl to come without a gift.

Perhaps it depends on your circles. I have never ever seen it done. Maybe in anglo circles? Or charedi circles? I wouldn't know.

Ultra/charedim are not expected to give gifts. Those close to the couple and those who can afford it, give gifts or money. It is not looked down upon at all to show up empty handed.

There was a time when I couldn't give gifts, but I wasn't embarrassed to go anyway. It's a mitzva!!

And I would never expect gifts. That would be farthest from my mind.

Just come and join my simcha and celebrate with me. What do gifts have to do with it? There is no mitzva to give gifts. Its a nice thing to do if you can afford to.

amother

Sun, May 06 2012, 7:32 am

I have resolved the embarrassing issue of going to simcha without a gift. I printed up nice cards that say. In honor of your wedding I have given a onation to x organization.

I don't put the amount, I can give one dolla or one hundred dollars.

israelimom

Sun, May 06 2012, 8:23 am

Tablepoetry, if you are in a position to keep up with your community's norms, then that's the ideal, right? Of course we should all try to determine what is given in our circles, and if circumstances allow, not deviate too much. I was responding to Freidasima's post about not giving to those who do not give to you and about keeping score. I don't think that's in keeping with lo tikom v'lo titur.

I'm with Chani8 -- let's keep the focus on the simcha and not on the gifts! Lev Tov and dan l'kaf zchut is in order here, as it is in all situations.

chocolate moose

Sun, May 06 2012, 8:43 am

chani8 wrote:

There is no mitzva to give gifts. Its a nice thing to do if you can afford to.

Actually ... for a poor couple, it's hachnossas kallah.

Simple1

Sun, May 06 2012, 8:54 am

amother wrote:

I'd probably rather get no gift at all. But maybe for a very wealthy person this would be considered thoughtful, as he doesn't need your money.

Page 2 of 5

Previous 1 2 3 4 5 Next