Coming to a simcha empty handed

Sun, May 06 2012, 9:02 am

Simple1 wrote:

amother wrote:

I have resolved the embarrassing issue of going to simcha without a gift. I printed up nice cards that say. In honor of your wedding I have given a onation to x organization.

I don't put the amount, I can give one dolla or one hundred dollars.

I'd probably rather get no gift at all. But maybe for a very wealthy person this would be considered thoughtful, as he doesn't need your money.

You would prefer someone not give tzedaka in your honor?

It is normal and expected in my circles to give tzedaka in honor of someone's simcha. Most gifts are something of value - monetary or sentimental - given directly to the honoree, but a substantial minority will be tzedaka.

As I noted earlier, acknowledgement cards sent to the honoree never indicate the amount given. Typically, the charity sends out a card and there is no need to make your own, but it's a nice idea as volunteer organizations can take a (very) long time to get the notes sent.

markmywords

Sun, May 06 2012, 9:07 am

OP:
I don't blame you for being upset. It's hard to be Dan lekaf zechus for a larger group of people.
I would say this: as hurt as you are, it might be important to do so. I know people who have amazing high salary jobs, who don't have a dime to live off of because of various debts and expenses. They are living off borrowed money from family. It may seem uncommon, but it's not. It's impossible to judge another's situation.
If I were you, I would continue to give according to your means, but not go overboard. You are doing a lot for others (perhaps too much). Maybe you should reserve your gifts only for actual simchas (not honors). It sounds like you expect according to what (or the fact that) you gave. Therein lies the problem. Expectations can only lead to disappointment. Did you ever hear the saying "when you ASSUME, you make an A$$ out of U and ME"?
I foolishly never thanked a particular individual who attended my wedding for his gift, because I felt he gave WELL below his means. It was very shallow on my part. Yes, he gave a gift, but judgement is judgement.

Tablepoetry

Sun, May 06 2012, 9:28 am

HindaRochel wrote:

Tova wrote:

MaBelleVie wrote:

It's rude. If you don't think you are close enough to give a gift, you aren't close enough to show up and eat a meal on their dime either.

No it's not. If we invite you to our simcha (a simcha! What a zchus to be baalei simcha) we want YOU there. I host you with pleasure and gratitude. I know that the simchos we are invited to the baalei simcha really want us there and don't care about any gift.

AGREED~! I don't invite people to my home or to my simcha because of what they bring outside of themselves. I want them, not their money. The money is a pleasant extra, but I would rather they come sans than not come at all!

I think most or many of us would agree with that sentiment. I love my guests and will continue to invite them to my smachot b'H regardless of what they bring.
But the op asked what she should do regarding giving gifts in the future (or at least I think that's what she asked, haven't gone back to check). I do believe that it is useful for her to take her cue from her guests.

Simple1

Sun, May 06 2012, 9:30 am

cm wrote:

Simple1 wrote:

amother wrote:

I'd probably rather get no gift at all. But maybe for a very wealthy person this would be considered thoughtful, as he doesn't need your money.

I guess I never heard of it except for Purim. But when it comes to a person who is struggling to make the Simcha, once you are giving anyway, why not give it to the Baal Simcha? I do understand if you can't afford anything, which is why I said, I'd rather get nothing at all. And that's why I said it's different for someone very wealthy.

HindaRochel

Sun, May 06 2012, 10:04 am

Tablepoetry wrote:

HindaRochel wrote:

Tova wrote:

MaBelleVie wrote:

It's rude. If you don't think you are close enough to give a gift, you aren't close enough to show up and eat a meal on their dime either.

Give what you can. I don't think you give according to what you get, I think you give what you can. Unless it is social inappropriate to give a gift, or to show up with a gift at a particular place, then you give what you can when you can with simcha.

I also think you receive with simcha as well, even if it isn't "socially acceptable" in one's community to give/receive.

If you are actually giving b'simcha, I don't think there will be a problem. Most people recognize a gift given with a loving heart, regardless of the amount of money spent on it, and a gift given condescendingly, whether it is more expensive than most gifts given or less.

Tova

Sun, May 06 2012, 11:38 am

Tablepoetry wrote:

HindaRochel wrote:

Tova wrote:

MaBelleVie wrote:

It's rude. If you don't think you are close enough to give a gift, you aren't close enough to show up and eat a meal on their dime either.

You are right. But I was responding to MaBelleVie whose post still surprises me. Maybe we are just blessed with friends, relatives and neighbors who we know want US at their simcha. We don't have friends making bar mitzvas or weddings yet, but our neighbors who are making those simchas and invite us I know want us to attend. Sometimes I give a gift, sometimes I don't. Never cash/check. I always bake something nice to send over for a vort or Shabbos kallah or whatever.

freidasima

Sun, May 06 2012, 2:24 pm

For those of you who are taken aback at my "keeping score" maybe remember a few things.

1) Here in EY, at least in my circles and in most non anglo-non charedi circles one invites tons of people to simchas because of obligation and not necessarily desire to share your simcha with them. Neighbors, but also lots of work colleagues who invited you to their children's simchas. This is more true for chasunehs but it can occasionally spill over to bar mitzvahs etc. As these are not "samchem tables" but one pays a full portion which can range between 100 to 500 shekel a plate (!) depending on where one is having the simcha, it's a lot of money to pay out if you aren't getting back. It's a social norm, and as you paid out for their kids you expect them to pay out for your kids as well. There is nothing emotional involved here, and most people are happy not to go but it's a "communal obligation" and a whole segment of society is economically based on this. That's one of the reasons that so many Israeli affairs are so large, it's no big deal to have over 300 people to a chasuneh and there are halls built to accomodate up to 1200 in some cases.

2) When it comes to your close friends, relatives, etc. it's a very small and nosy country. Everyone knows everything about everyone. You can bet your bottom dollar here that when someone is having financial difficulty it's no secret no matter how discreet someone is. Everyone is nosy, everyone sticks their big Jewish noses into business that is not theirs and everyone has something to say about it. the good part is also that a lot of people will often offer one in trouble a lot of help. So if someone isn't giving at a simcha because they are suddenly in dire financial straits, it's no secret and people will understand. However...they will also know if one is just trying to cop out of the system by not giving something. And those people will often get socially censured. Why? Because simply there is a pyramid economic system of sorts here in which everyone plays their assigned role and more or less it breaks even. So why do it in the first place? Because of social demands of large community which exist here, because of all the people who make their living from the simcha sector and they, too, deserve to make a living. Because it's the way it is and the way it has been for decades and if someone wants to break away from the system they have to know that they are then going to cause a lot of hard feelings among people who paid in for that couple's kids weddings and expected to one day be on the receiving side of the game and now that couple has decided to opt out and not do their share.

3) When one is speaking of an accepted economic system there is no "lo this and lo that" involved like one poster wrote. There is davka "hocheiach tochiach" of those breaking the system as they are causing a lot of people a financial zap in the head.

4) finally, remember, the number of people that one would really cares about at one's simcha here is often very small compared to the large numbers of people one must invite for social reasons of communal responsibility, with "community" not only being your kehilla, but in the much broader sense. Your work community, your makolet owner, your cleaning lady and her family, your metapelet and her extended family, and sometimes one's electrician, plumber (yes), nurse and doctor at the local kupat cholim if you use them extensively, etc. So it's not exactly like you are making cheshbonos with your cousins, close friends, etc. If someone turns down the invitation, BTW, they are also not expected to give a check (much more common in many circles than a gift). In secular society it is very common to turn down invitations when one doesn't want to pay out 500 shekel a couple minimum if it is a social invitation and one doesn't want to pay...

Different world folks, but it works fine for the people in it so don't knock it.

freidasima

Sun, May 06 2012, 3:35 pm

Israelimom maybe you live in the charedi velt here. Table and I don't. We belong to an economic system which gives parnosseh to thousands of people in the simcha world by having these large affairs. They are economic. And just as Table wrote, when you go to the makolet you wouldn't pay "out of the goodness of one's heart" but one pays the accepted price.

Where do you get your idea that this is "lo tikom velo titor"? Did a rov tell you this? Which rov, sources please. Sounds like you are the one who is speaking from a "touchy feely" kind of Judaism which decides the meaning of this or that mitzvo according to what you "feel" at the time. That isn't the meaning of lo tikom. Nekama has a very precise halochic definition which has absolutely nothing to do with what you wrote here. Where in the world did you get this kockamayme perush?! Lo titor is "holding against" halochically. Table and I aren't speaking about holding somehting against in one's heart. We are speaking about something so totally different that I think that you are just making this up as you go along!

The accepted halochic definition of lo tikom velo titor has nothing to do with not giving a gift to someone who didn't give a gift to you. You want Xtianity, turning the other cheek. In my branch of Judaism one gives (in economics, in spirit and in terms of the other cheek) what one gets.

you may live here a long time but sounds like you want people to be suckers. That doesn't work here, you know, especially if one isn't living among anglos.

freidasima

Sun, May 06 2012, 4:30 pm

Let me explain.

I have a limited tolerance for touchy-feely explanations that have no halochic basis. I have even less tolerance for attempts of people to putstheir own take on something that is written meforush and uses it as "tocheicho" with no basis. And I have zero tolerance for anyone who implies that millions, literally millions of Jews for whom it is a norm to act in a certain way, which is 100% muttar, are doing something which is terribly ossur.

Hence I wrote as I did.

Someone reading your post might think that there is a halochic basis for what you are saying. There is not. Therefore I asked for your rov, your source for such an explanation. To double check I also asked my dh who deals with this kind of stuff daily and he, too, said that your explanation is mixing apples with oranges or in his words, min she'eino mino. And someone who doesn't have a deeper understanding of halocho and reads what you wrote might think then that half of the State of Israel who acts as I do or Table does in "keeping score" is being over a tremendous lav. Which we are not. I therefore wrote what I did rather harshly, as what you write implies that a great number of am yisroel are sinners in this case...which we certainly are not.

Now for an explanation.

Rashi does not say what you claim he does. He brings two very precies examples. One, that if a neighbor asks for one's sicle and you don't give it to him claiming he did not give you his when you asked for it, that is nekama and netira. The second example is an axe, not a sicle.

Note, if we are getting down to the nitty gritty. The precise situation that Rashi describes requires, according not only to him but to the other meforshim, three conditions:

1) that you asked, precisesly, in words, precisely and specifically for a specific item.
2) that the person you asked refuses, with words to give you that item and made no explanation for his behavior and
3) that when that person asked you for that same exact item you refused saying (to yourself) that he did not give you when you asked.

that is what Rashi says. And that is not by far the case here.

First, there is no item asked for in words. And yes WORDS are part of the halochic equation. If there is no precise and specific request, then there is no case. And in the case of the wedding there is no verbal request for a check, a gift etc.

Second, the person coming to the simcha who is not asked by you for anything does not refuse verbally your request, because there IS no request.

Third, that person is not asking verbally for the precise item that he verbally refused you.

The whole concept, the entire concept of nekama and netira is first and foremost a verbal one. A person has to be sure that his request is understood hence it must be made clear verbally, it can not be "inferred" it can not be a "norm", it has to be asked for. Second, the person being asked has to verbally refuse the request, a condition that of course does not come into being in the case of not giving a present or a check at a simcha, and third, that specific person has to come to you and verbally make that same request of you.

If any of these conditions do not happen, there is no question of anything being either nekama or netira halochically.

Halocho, as I keep reminding people here, is not a touchy feely concept. It is a very precise legal system with legal prerequisites and other such things like in any legal system. Therefore it is totally ridiculous for someone to just plaster a posuk of an issur on an action and say "this is ossur". It has to conform to the legal requirements for it to happen. This does not.

Where in the world are you getting what you are saying "halocho insists that we don't keep tabs"? That is NOT what Rashi wrote. "Keeping tabs" is a very important way to keep society tamed, to keep people from acting selfishly, and to remember that there is a klal. It is a fundamental basis of much of society, and if you read rabbinic literature from the medieval and early modern period, it plays a great basis in interaction, even among rishonim and achronim.

Tablepoetry

Sun, May 06 2012, 5:33 pm

israelimom, I'm just wondering, from a practical standpoint, what would you advise someone like the op to do? Let's say someone consistently gave generous gifts (within communal norms) everytime she was invited to a simcha. Then when the time comes for her to hold a simcha, she notes that half the guests walk in empty handed. She has another simcha. Same thing.

Let's assume she knows most of these guests and knows they are not in bad financial straits. They just don't feel like bringing anything - maybe they are adopting the new 'no gift' communal norm. But the other half of her guests are still giving her very generous gifts for each simcha.

Are you suggesting she ignore the fact half the guests are bringing 250-350 NIS a plate and half the guests are bringing nothing? Should she continue to write EVERYONE a 300 NIS check/plate like she always did in the past? She can't really afford that anymore, since her smachot aren't being covered. Should she start giving EVERYONE nothing? Or a donation in lieu? Or just give everyone half of what she used to give?
I really don't understand how this is supposed to work in practice. The above lady would love to continue to give graciously to everyone, but can't do that anymore since half her guests are no longer supporting the 'system'. But she feels terrible cutting back and writing 125 NIS checks from now on to everyone, because that really doesn't cover the plate at most halls, and why should she stop giving graciously to those who were generous to her?

israelimom

Sun, May 06 2012, 5:52 pm

Freidasima,
I suppose then that I'm as "touchy-feely" in my understanding of these mitzvot as the Ramchal was when he wrote in Mesilat Yesharim 11:
על כן לשיהיה בכחו לעזוב מה שטבעו מכריח אותו ויעבור על מדותיו, ולא ישנא מי שהעיר בו השנאה, ולא יקום ממנו בהזדמן לו שיוכל להנקם, ולא יטור לו, אלא את הכל ישכח ויסיר מלבו כאילו לא היה חזק ואמיץ הוא
For your reference, he goes on to quote Vayikra 19:18 directly, saying:
(ויקרא יט): לא תשנא את אחיך בלבבך, לא תקום ולא תטור את בני עמך (שם). וענין הנקימה והנטירה ידוע, דהיינו: נקימה, לימנע מהיטיב למי שלא רצה להטיב לו או שהרע לו כבר."

I'll further direct you to the Chofetz Chaim, mevo to the Be'er Mayim Chayim, Hilchot Shmirat HaLashon, where he also understands the mitzvah in the "touchy-feely" context that you referenced in your post:
מוזהרין ישראל שלא למנוע לעשות צדקה וגמ"ח בממון בשביל שלא עשה הוא עמו כהוייתו שזו היא נקימה וגם מוזהרין וכו' שזו היא נטירה עכ"ל. ומה שכתבתי בפנים על הנטירה שבלב על הלאו דלא תטור כן כתב ר"י בש"ת במאמר ל"ח דאין העונש בזה על הדיבור אלא על נטירת הלב, וכן כתב בספר החינוך במצוה רמ"ב וז"ל שם אפילו בזכירת חטאו בלב לבד נמנענו עכ"ל. וכן מוכח מהרמב"ם בסוף הלכות דיעות שכתב דצריך שימחה הדבר מלבו. ומה שכתבתי בפנים לענין לא תקום ולא תטור הוא שייך בכל האופנים ורק להמספר, ואולם אם המקבל סייע בהסיפור ונהנה ממנו עבור שלא הטיב עמו ג"כ גם הוא עובר בלא תקום ולא תטור:

Please note how he quotes both the Chinuch and the Rambam.

Please provide your source material that to be over on lo tikom requires a specifically worded formula. Until then, why should I believe your assertion that the halachic contours of these lavin are sharply defined and unanimously agreed upon as requiring verbal exchange? Further, you seem to misunderstand the gemara in Yoma as quoted by Rashi to limit the aveirah of to tikom to a specifically worded statement -- the Chinuch should clear that one up for you with the simple עד היכן כוחה של נקמה...ועל כגון זה היקש כל הדברים

Finally:
Chalilah v'chas would I suggest that "millions and millions" (!) are ma'avrin a lav. To "keep score," in my mind, implies harboring resentment, and the strictures of halacha in this realm would demand that we take care to ensure for ourselves that our actions (or lack thereof, in the case of not reciprocating with a gift) do not stem from such resentment. This would be effected by giving regardless of having received. In your opinion, this is an economic issue and the ba'al simcha bears no ill-will towards he who did not give; he just won't reciprocate in kind when the tables are turned. I direct you to the original post on this most interesting thread as evidence that my opinion is correct in this particular case.

Layla tov -- I have to wake up in 6 hours to give shiur (I teach halacha). (I'm serious.)