Coming to a simcha empty handed

morah

Sun, May 06 2012, 5:57 pm

How long ago was the simcha? Very few people actually come to the party gift in hand, and standard American etiquette is that you have up to a year to give a gift. I would say 90% of my wedding gifts arrived in the 3 months following my wedding, and there was a steady trickle until about 6 months, and yes, some people actually waited till the year was nearly up. If it hasn't been that long, calm down, I'm sure plenty of gifts are forthcoming. And if they never arrive, do try to remember that we are in the middle of a nasty recession here.

Fox

Sun, May 06 2012, 7:42 pm

Tablepoetry wrote:

israelimom, I'm just wondering, from a practical standpoint, what would you advise someone like the op to do? Let's say someone consistently gave generous gifts (within communal norms) everytime she was invited to a simcha. Then when the time comes for her to hold a simcha, she notes that half the guests walk in empty handed. She has another simcha. Same thing.

Let's assume she knows most of these guests and knows they are not in bad financial straits. They just don't feel like bringing anything - maybe they are adopting the new 'no gift' communal norm. But the other half of her guests are still giving her very generous gifts for each simcha.

Are you suggesting she ignore the fact half the guests are bringing 250-350 NIS a plate and half the guests are bringing nothing? Should she continue to write EVERYONE a 300 NIS check/plate like she always did in the past? She can't really afford that anymore, since her smachot aren't being covered. Should she start giving EVERYONE nothing? Or a donation in lieu? Or just give everyone half of what she used to give?
I really don't understand how this is supposed to work in practice. The above lady would love to continue to give graciously to everyone, but can't do that anymore since half her guests are no longer supporting the 'system'. But she feels terrible cutting back and writing 125 NIS checks from now on to everyone, because that really doesn't cover the plate at most halls, and why should she stop giving graciously to those who were generous to her?

Here's the bottom line, IMHO: the OP needs to focus less on what she believes to be "right," and figure out what the normal practices and attitudes are in her community. If she lives in circles similar to those of Table and FS, then she has every right to be offended, and there's obviously something else going on.

However, because such a small percentage of guests gave gifts (10 percent, if I remember correctly), I'm guessing that her community is more like mine, where gifts are considered a nice bonus that is not necessarily related to participation or attendance.

We can discuss which system is "best" -- and I think there are valid arguments for and against both approaches -- but in the end, you have to accommodate the way your community does things.

Nor does it have anything to do with being "old-fashioned." Were I to move to EY and be invited to FS's or Table's chassunahs, it would be obnoxious of me to sniff that, "I guess I just wasn't raised with the idea that a chassunah involves an admission fee." Well, duh! Of course I wasn't raised like that! I was raised somewhere completely different, with a completely different approach to simchas. And if I wanted to fit into my new surroundings, I'd darned well better show up with a check for however many NISs is considered appropriate.

The same is true in reverse: it's not fair to hold even a minor grudge against people who are most likely practicing what is considered "normal" behavior in their social circles. You may not like the social norm, but you can't take offense when other people practice it.

amother

Sun, May 06 2012, 8:19 pm

OP here
Fox about fifty percent of the people gave gifts. Somebody else posted that they only got gifts from ten percent. I did not expect gifts from any of our friends that the husbands are in kollel. And I would continue give to each of their kids simchas regardless. Its our "working class" friends and people we know we are suprised about. Also, when you give money to an organization when they are being honored you put a add in the journal so they know what you gave in their honor. Its not a secret.

amother

Sun, May 06 2012, 8:33 pm

amother wrote:

OP, this really surprises me that people don't give. I can understand if someone has a unique situation or really can't afford anything but in reality if someone is accepting a gift they should have in mind to reciprocate. If they can't, maybe they shouldn't accept that gift to begin with.
I would not continue to give any gifts to those who have not reciprocated. It has nothing to do with nekama as one of the posters was saying.

If you're giving to people who can't afford it- for example kollel couple or rav's children's wedding- you can probably take the gift from tzedaka/maaser if they need it.

Dandelion1

Sun, May 06 2012, 9:28 pm

Halachic debate notwithstanding (although fascinating! Thank you Israelimom!) I think the op's issue is much more simple than all of the debate on community norms and one's civic responsibility to finance the entertainment sector. By not giving gifts at the op's simcha, those who she had consistently given gifts to previously established their own norms of no-gift-giving-required. I think if she continued to give gifts after that it would just be weird, and a little degrading.

I had a friend who behaved this way. She didn't give gifts for the simple reason that if she gave you the money she would no longer have it to spend on herself. This went on for some time. However, at a certain point, she stopped receiving gifts as well. Could you really expect people to behave otherwise?

Tablepoetry

Mon, May 07 2012, 1:19 am

candyheart wrote:

This.

amother

Mon, May 07 2012, 1:38 am

I am always late giving gifts.But they do get the check eventually. One time a friend of mine daughters son had a bar mitzvah. I planned on sending a gift but didn't get to it yet. My friend passed away and her daughter yelled at me u never gave my son a bar mitzvah gift. I was so embarrassed that I just never sent it because she was so angry.Since then I send a check in the reply card....I feel really bad about the situation but she made me feel really bad.I do realize she was hurting when she vented at and to me.

Karnash

Mon, May 07 2012, 1:52 am

I find this topic interesting - as was noted, gift-giving was vehemently debated in the past. Two of the major antagonists on that thread were FS and Fox. This time around, they are still on opposite sides of the fence, they haven't changed their opinions - BUT - they can understand eachother's POV!!

Yay! Imamother!

freidasima

Mon, May 07 2012, 4:58 am

Karnash, of course Fox and I can understand each other because basically, although we live in two different countries and two different societies, we are "coming from the same place". It's not geographic, Israelimom and I are coming from the same country but from "different places" which I will explain in a moment when I answer her points.

Without debating the relative merits of the two systems Fox and I agree on a fundamentalist issue. That one should do what one's society does and what is the general norm. In her society there is a different norm than in mine and it would be ridiculous, as she writes, for me to expect her society to act like mine if they come to my simcha. And vice versa. If she would expect the society in which I function to act like hers if they are invited to her simcha, she is setting herself up for a big disappointment. Both of us agree to the same basic underlying code. Act like your surroundings act. To which I think we can both add, "and if you don't like it, then find another surrounding for yourself."

Now for Israelimom. First, we don't pasken from the chofetz chaim, the ramchal and even the Rambam. We pasken by the Shulchan Oruch, the Remo and later commentaries as per our various groups to which we belong, taking into account group and communal norms. See the discussions that already went back and forth on this issue in the section on the development of Judaism. I don't remember who writes that nekama according to Rashi has to have a verbal component. But I do remember learning it years and years ago, even as way back as sem, and I can eventually ask my husband when he gets home and he can give me the source.

But let's look at the sources you bring.

You and I are obviously coming from a different premise and everything that you quote is actually supporting what I keep saying. The premise is the definition of "nekama" and "netira". You are looking at it as an emotional issue. I, like many others, and I think Table as well, are looking at it as a purely economic issue, with emotion not being involved. To have nekama or netira, the "tnai mukdam vehechrechi", the prerequisite, is that it has to come from an emotional place. In the society in which she and I are discussing, it does not, it comes from an economic societal standpoint.

Therefore it is neither nekama or netira. It is breaking an unwritten but accepted economic contract. Once it is broken towards you, you no longer have to hold by it when dealing financially with the person who broke it. Thus, BTW speaks the law.

Maybe you should re-read the precise language of what you are quoting. The Chofetz Chaim is talking about "Gemilus Hasodim and Zedoko with mamon" meaning money. Presents for a simcha in a society where people are expected to give in order to cover expenses, as it totally acceptable and expected in much of modern Israeli society, are neither "zedoko" nor are they "gemilus chasodim". They are actually no more than the equivalent of "paying for an item" in this case, a meal. There is no emotion involved, particularly as most of the people invited in such societies are not deeply emotionally or biologically connected to the ba'al hasimcha but are, as Table and I have pointed out, people one invites because of societal requirements. Therefore when they don't pay what is expected - and again, this usually holds true only in chasunehs, it's well known that at Bar Mitzvahs the checks will rarely cover expenses - they are breaking a norm, and when one knows that it is not because of tragedy, sudden loss of revenue, poverty etc, but only because they are too cheap to pay and "want to get away with it", then the accepted social sanction - halochically accepted because accepting an invitation in these circles is the equivalent of accepting a tacit contract which by not giving anything they have now broken - is to use that same system when going to their simcha.

Basically the halochic premise - and I have spoken to rabbonim in our circle about this after Fox and I heatedly debated the issue months ago - is that there is an accepted social economic contract in such society. You give something. If you can't afford to cover your plate then you give what you can. However someone who gives nothing and is part of such society (and isn't the victim of tragedy, etc.) is blatantly disregarding the accepted contract and making up his own. One that says "I go but don't give." Therefore, when you go to his simcha after he has made up a different contract you are no longer obliged to give according to YOUR contract but rather according to his. You can therefore go to him and not give.

It's not nekama, it's not netira. It has nothing to do with emotion. It has to do with economics, contracts and societal norms.

Which is why Israelimom and I are coming from totally different places. To her, keeping score is an emotional issue which she places under nekomo. To me and to many others it has nothing to do with emotion, with gemilus chasodim, with zedoko. It has to do with economics as in almost all cases of chasunehs that I go to (we have a very small family, most are work related, friends of friends, larger community, the baal makolet's children, etc.) it's a social responsibility and very little more. Hence one is basically paying for one's dinner. If one doesn't and it is an across the board accepted thing in that society - as it is in the one in which I function - then someone who doesn't even try to pay is actually in a sense stealing from the chossen and kallah who will have to pay for that person's plate totally and get nothing in return.

Yes, yes, for those who look at chasunehs as this big spiritual thing for people you are close to etc. it sounds harsh, but that's not what most chasunehs in our circle are like, in many cases you don't know the bride or groom, you never heard of them and probably will never see them again but their mother is a secretary in the next office of something like that and she had to invite the whole office including the boss. You accept the invitation under the contract-premise that you are paying for your meal. You are being invited because they have to invite you. If you don't pay anything at all and can afford to, you aren't keeping the contract. and therefore when they come to you, they are halochically permitted to use your contract, they no longer have to use theirs, hence they don't have to pay. No emotion involved. Pure economics and contracts.

Mon, May 07 2012, 6:23 am

amother wrote:

This is true for a fundraising dinner. But if you ever made a contribution to an organization in honor of a wedding or bar/bat mitzvah, or in memory of someone, there is no ad journal - the honoree (newly married couple, bar/bat mitzvah kid, bereaved family, etc) will receive a card from the organization stating that you made a contribution.

Tablepoetry

Mon, May 07 2012, 7:33 am

freidasima wrote:

,

it's well known that at Bar Mitzvahs the checks will rarely cover expenses - .

Actually this also depends. IME people do cover their plate at bar/bat mitzvahs and britot/simchat bat. In fact, after holding several of these events, I'd say about 80% cover their plate, and the remaining 20% include the friends of the kid (and in my case, charedi relatives). In fact, it was a running joke among my crowd when we were having our first babies that people should have kids (boys or girls) just to 'earn' money from the brit/simchat bat (OK, it wasn't a joke in good taste, but not all of them are).

Anyway, I agree absolutely with FS that this isn't emotional, it's economic. And social, I would add. I do keep tabs not because I'm 'holding a grudge' but davka because I don't want to embarrass anyone. And it is embarrassing/awkward if you give someone much more than they gave you (they might think you pity them) or much less (they might be insulted).

freidasima

Mon, May 07 2012, 7:44 am

Table I guess it might also depend what kind of bat or bas mitzva one makes. In terms of a bris, maybe as usually that's for closer friends and family but I've never seen kids cover their plate at a bar mitzva and if one has to invite a grade of fifty boys they aren't necessarily going to cover a full mana, maybe a kids portion but not all places let one do that, also they rarely cover the weekend going away bar mitzvahs, at least in my experience...I guess you were luckier.

In any case you express exactly what I meant about keeping score. This is pure economics, emotion has nothing to do with it. Unless there really are extenuating circumstances one gives as one gets to keep the system going, and as I wrote lets not forget that there are thousands of families whose livelihood comes from these very large simchas which are a norm among much of the population here as compared to an American wedding with 140 people...maybe they might be peeved to have their livelihood cut by people who aren't doing what they should, but certainly the Baal simcha makes lists of who gave what for economic reasons certainly not emotional ones.

Tova

Mon, May 07 2012, 8:00 am

FS - these last few posts explained it to me better than any of the posts in past. I understand (I think) but I just can't relate. Different societies (as you keep saying) - fair enough?

Question for how it works in your system - how does it work with people that aren't on the same footing as you, or you owe hakaras hatov to? Meaning for instance your Rabbi's simchas. Do you give generously not expecting it in return because it's normal for congregants to give to Rabbi but (at least not in my circles) the opposite? Or like let's say I'm thinking of the last chassunah my husband attended...it was one of the men in his night seder chabura that he arranges who was marrying off a daughter. The individual really wanted my husband there - mentioned to him several times - so my husband went purely to send mazal tov and simcha to someone in his chabura. How do relationships like that work vis-a-vis gift giving? [I'm also coming from the standpoint of being in kollel and that factors into people not really expecting gifts from us...they seem very happy and touched when I send over a cake plate and nice note.]

Lastly, you talk about inviting your secretaries, etc. By definition I would think your secretary is making less than you. You are the boss/professional. Even if they aren't going through financial hardship, by definition of the relationship you are not on economic footing. How do the gifts work in that circumstance.

Tablepoetry

Mon, May 07 2012, 8:33 am

freidasima wrote:

I agree. I've never had a kid cover his portion or anywhere near it. In some cities I lived kids would bring a modest gift. Where I live now the standard is 70-100 NIS for a gift from a kid. But of course I wouldn't know that if I didn't 'keep tabs'.
Our britot/smachot bat were covered because there were no large groups of kids invited. And the bar/bat mitzvot were almost covered because we only had 30-40 kid-friends, and the other gifts (from very close family) made up for it.

israelimom

Mon, May 07 2012, 8:54 am

Friedasima:
1) I will copy here what I originally posted, which is a much more succinct summary of the points which you expounded on in the wake of my post. Why, we are saying the same thing!
"Chalilah v'chas would I suggest that "millions and millions" (!) are ma'avrin a lav. To "keep score," in my mind, implies harboring resentment, and the strictures of halacha in this realm would demand that we take care to ensure for ourselves that our actions (or lack thereof, in the case of not reciprocating with a gift) do not stem from such resentment. This would be effected by giving regardless of having received. In your opinion, this is an economic issue and the ba'al simcha bears no ill-will towards he who did not give; he just won't reciprocate in kind when the tables are turned. I direct you to the original post on this most interesting thread as evidence that my opinion is correct in this particular case."

2) Thank you for schooling me on the halachic process. (I cannot emphasize enough how tongue-in-cheek this comment is.) A dismissal of the pskei halacha of the Rambam, Ramchal and Chofetz Chaim (!) (you are aware who authored the Mishna Brurah, are you not?) is very telling of your grasp of psak.

3) Eagerly awaiting proof that the issur requires a verbal exchange; such robust and confident elucidation of the halacha, as you proferred last night, must be amply documented in the halachic literature! As per your understanding of the halachic process I expect no less than a clear-cut citation in the S"A. Smile

Best,
Israelimom

Last edited by israelimom on Mon, May 07 2012, 8:57 am; edited 1 time in total

Mon, May 07 2012, 8:57 am

From an American perspective - my gift is intended for the newlyweds or the bar/bat mitzvah child, not the parents throwing the party. I make the check out to the recipient(s), not the parents. Parents should throw a party they can afford, and parties do not need to be lavish in order to fulfill the goal of celebrating with family and community. The gifts only "cover the cost of the wedding" if a couple is hosting the party themselves, rather than their parents paying for it. And other people's personal finances are none of my business - I wouldn't ask who is paying for what; in the US that is considered rude.

I give gifts according to my means, and there is no way I could give to cover the cost of elegant kosher catering in a high-cost-of-living area. If I felt obligated to "pay for my meal," I wouldn't go to anyone's weddings, unless I could ascertain in advance how much it cost - not something polite Americans would discuss. If more than one member of a family attends a party, do you need to increase the gift commensurately?

Gifts are from the heart - one family to another. I suppose if I lived in Israel I might consider my role in supporting the catering industry, but in the US I don't see that as my obligation, to put it very mildly.

amother

Mon, May 07 2012, 10:26 am

I've never seen kids cover their plate at a bar mitzva and if one has to invite a grade of fifty boys they aren't necessarily going to cover a full mana, maybe a kids portion but not all places let one do that,

In some schools the Bar Mitzvah boy gets nothing from his friends regardless if it costs five dollars a plate or a hundred dollars a plate. This is in New York.

Fox

Mon, May 07 2012, 11:23 am

amother wrote:

Are we talking about a chassunah or a bar mitzvah? Again, I can only speak for my own circles, but the two are treated very, very differently. Gifts given for a chassunah are theoretically given to help the couple establish a new home (or, in FS's and Table's circles, to assist with an event that, from an sociological viewpoint, serves to establish the new couple within the larger community).

Bar mitzvah gifts (again, speaking only in my own circles) are typically given only by family members, extended family, and very close friends of the family. I would estimate that my older DS received maybe 5 or 6 extremely modest gifts that didn't come someone in one of those categories.

Now, that said, I will also mention that bar mitzvah festivities in my community are much, much lower-key than in some communities. My son's school requires that parents discuss their plans with the menahel before arrangements are made, and there is a lot of social pressure to keep things more-or-less modest. So unless you're (a) related to the family in some way; or (b) very close friends with the family, it is unlikely that you would be invited to anything other than a somewhat-more-lavish-than-usual kiddush at shul.

HindaRochel

Mon, May 07 2012, 12:08 pm

Tablepoetry wrote:

freidasima wrote:

,

it's well known that at Bar Mitzvahs the checks will rarely cover expenses - .

I don't see why you would think that. Dafka, someone who doesn't have the money maybe could use for their children's Bar/Bat Mitzvah, wedding and it is a way of giving without embarrassing. I think it would depend on how one gave. If you gave with a smile, and said something along the lines of "I'm so happy for you and (your daughter/son/etc)." why would they feel embarrassed?

Ruchel

Mon, May 07 2012, 12:40 pm

I say if one wants the guests to cover the simcha cost (why?? it's not their simcha!), do something small with only the meaningful people. Bar mitsva or wedding. BH most people seem to do what they can afford, rather normal smachot. Most people keep the money for the bar/bat mitsva kid. Not all. In my world even if the bar mitsva sold allllll his gifts it would cover only a small %. For a wedding too.

I'm currently dealing with a couple, he is North African Mizrachi in origin and wants a big simcha, she is Euro Sefardi (samech tet) in origin and wants something smaller, more casual, no henne, no costumes, "no youyou" LOL

. What he wants costs 10 000 euros and she refuses to pay 5000 for "unneeded" things.