Is Baltimore yeshivish?

Hashem_Yaazor

Thu, May 10 2012, 9:11 am

amother wrote:

I am the previuus baltimore amother who used to live in europe. yes, I meant only ner israel in baltimore is considered modern in the part of europe where I used to live. now that I live here in balto, I see the differences in ner israel and some more shtark yeshivas like gateshead, but I do not htink it is particularly modern. I regularly find myself defending ner to relatives in for example the UK, telling them that no if a bochur goes there it does not mean he is a modernishe bochur!

It's a mix. There is a big difference between mechina and the yeshiva, and between the yeshiva and the kollel.

Rubber Ducky

Thu, May 10 2012, 9:55 am

Ner Israel may be considered less yeshivish because so many bochrim there are also going to college/graduate school. I think of Baltimore as "chilled" yeshivish. There are really all types here, a huge range, although not very much Chassidish.

As mentioned before, Ohr Chadash is a modern coed elementary school, and TA appears to have picked up a lot of boys from (now defunct) Rambam.

From your description of the neighborhood it sounds like you only saw one corner of the Baltimore community. I would encourage you to rent initially so you can understand the neighborhoods better. My neighborhood, Cheswolde, is beautiful, middle class, and hashkafically mixed. It's in the City, not County.

amother

Thu, May 10 2012, 9:58 am

I think the main thing to remember about Baltimore is this:

Most of the yeshivish are not what you think of as yeshivish.
Most of the MO are not what you think of as MO.

My dh is learning in Ner Yisroel right now, and has been so for about seven years. Most of his friends have either already gotten jobs (yes, some in chinuch or rabbanus, but plenty in accounting, etc) or are planning on doing so in the next year or so. There are a small handful of people who go on to learn full time for 10+ years, but those are the exception, not the rule. (This is actually dh's last year in yeshiva -- he just got a job that starts in a couple of months.) Many of the so-called "yeshivish" people in Baltimore are completely happy with their kids playing with any other frum kids in the community whose parents respect their standards, even if they don't have the same hashkafos. Many of them go to college or have a degree of some sort, many of them value secular education at least on some level.

I grew up in Baltimore in an MO family. Then I went to Michlalah and realized that we really weren't MO. Sure, I wore shorts and T-shirts in the summertime as a kid and went mixed swimming (and only stopped because I chose to -- my mother would have preferred I continue). Sure, we supported Israeli causes, my mom didn't cover her hair, and my brothers wore knitted yarmulkes. But we were in no way hardcore MO. My parents respected the yeshivish world. My mother didn't cover her hair not on principle (as she woudl admit if you asked her) but because it just wasn't what she did, her mother didn't do it, and it just wasn't something that she felt was "her." I didn't even know that yom ha'atzmiut existed until high school, although I'm sure some MO kids there did. My parents bought my brother a black hat for his bar mitzvah because they thought it was something special that they could do for him (in the end, he barely wore it, but still). We got along very well with many of the more yeshivish people in the community, and I'd have friends over all the time, at which point my parents would turn off the TV and I would make sure not to play them secular music.

I'm sure that Baltimore has changed since then, and my kids aren't old enough for me to really know exactly how. I do know that what I love about Baltimore is that MANY people there do not fit into a box. If you're hardcore MO, it might be a bit harder to find your niche there, and if you were hardcore yeshvish, the same would apply. There are definitely plenty of young couples, both yeshivish and MO, who live here, as well as plenty of families with grade-school kids, and plenty of older families as well. But for the most part (and there are always exceptions, mostly those who have been imported from the tri-state area), people are far more willing to see other points of view, interact with people who are different from them, and live in areas where there's a mix of people.

As for the geography of Baltimore, there are essentially two MAIN areas with lots of subareas (not counting the place near the yeshiva). One is Park Heights, which yes, has a more yeshivish and older crowd, and does have some problems with crime. As you get farther from "the bad neighborhood" (Northern Parkway area), you might find places that you like even in Park Heights. The houses are much cheaper there, and many of them (although not all) are smaller. The other is Greenspring, which has areas with younger people, areas with older people, areas that are somewhat more yeshivish or more MO, areas that have more expensive housing and some that have cheaper housing.

I would suggest looking into either Indian Village (a new area people are moving into not far from Greenspring), the streets near Suburban Orthodox (Marnat, Bonnie, Northbrook, etc), and maybe even the area near Heather Ridge. I'm just giving you names so that when you get here, you'll know where to look into.

nylon

Thu, May 10 2012, 10:09 am

I agree with this--I think Baltimore leans more rightward, but would not describe it as yeshivish specifically. I think the school situation in Baltimore says a lot about the makeup of the population: there's trouble at the MO end, but the "RW" schools are much more diverse than most of their NY/NJ equivalents.

Ruchel

Thu, May 10 2012, 11:36 am

MaBelleVie wrote:

Ruchel wrote:

amother wrote:

I grew up in europe,. in europe, ner israel is considered very modern and any european bochur who goes there must be too modern to get into gateshead,etc.!

Really? This has not been what I was told by mechanchim or noticed. Is it an English problem (you mention Gateshead)?

Many Ner Israel boys go on to the shtarkest schools including St Louis, Novardok, Mir Brahfeld... as for the girls they certainly go into Gateshead or BY type Israeli sems.

If it's like BY, then almost any Jewish school could call itself Ner Israel... just in France, BY ranges from "throws a skirt on pants for school" to "3 pages of mussar dress code".

I'm pretty sure she's talking abt Ner Israel in Baltimore.

(St Louis... Don't get me started. )

My dh would like St Louis, if we don't find what we want around Paris. Can you tell more? Tongue Out

MaBelleVie

Thu, May 10 2012, 11:52 am

I am very strongly opposed to places like st Louis, but obviously there are ppl who feel differently Smile

if its what you're looking for, great. Just research it well beforehand. Anyway, you have plenty of time Smile

PinkFridge

Thu, May 10 2012, 8:38 pm

MaBV and Ruchel, you may want to move this into PM territory. But am I correct in my assumption that Toto, we're not in Missoura any more?

amother

Fri, May 11 2012, 10:27 am

amother wrote:

I think the main thing to remember about Baltimore is this:

I grew up in Baltimore in an MO family. Then I went to Michlalah and realized that we really weren't MO. Sure, I wore shorts and T-shirts in the summertime as a kid and went mixed swimming (and only stopped because I chose to -- my mother would have preferred I continue). Sure, we supported Israeli causes, my mom didn't cover her hair, and my brothers wore knitted yarmulkes. But we were in no way hardcore MO. My parents respected the yeshivish world. My mother didn't cover her hair not on principle (as she woudl admit if you asked her) but because it just wasn't what she did, her mother didn't do it, and it just wasn't something that she felt was "her." I didn't even know that yom ha'atzmiut existed until high school, although I'm sure some MO kids there did. My parents bought my brother a black hat for his bar mitzvah because they thought it was something special that they could do for him (in the end, he barely wore it, but still). We got along very well with many of the more yeshivish people in the community, and I'd have friends over all the time, at which point my parents would turn off the TV and I would make sure not to play them secular music.

I'm sure that Baltimore has changed since then, and my kids aren't old enough for me to really know exactly how. I do know that what I love about Baltimore is that MANY people there do not fit into a box. If you're hardcore MO, it might be a bit harder to find your niche there, and if you were hardcore yeshvish, the same would apply. There are definitely plenty of young couples, both yeshivish and MO, who live here, as well as plenty of families with grade-school kids, and plenty of older families as well. But for the most part (and there are always exceptions, mostly those who have been imported from the tri-state area), people are far more willing to see other points of view, interact with people who are different from them, and live in areas where there's a mix of people.

.

I'm similar. I grew up in an MO Baltimore familly. My mother wore pants and didn't cover her hair. We went mixed swimming as a family. I never really wore shorts/pants except around the house, and I stopped wearing short sleeves at my bat mitzvah because that's what I learned in school.

My father wore a kippa seruga out of choice, and made it a point to go to a minyan where he could say hallel on Yom Haazmaut. No black hats for bar mitzvah.. When it came time for seminary, I also went to Michlahlah as did my sister (and sister-in-law from another MO family). Had my father known how many black hat Rabbanim taught at Michlahlah, he would have wanted us to go elsewhere. I took on the Zionist stuff from my parents, but I didn't talk to boys until I was dating, and dressed more tznuna than most MO. I'm MO/DL now. My sister turned out Yeshivish.

amother

Fri, May 11 2012, 10:54 am

PinkFridge wrote:

MaBV and Ruchel, you may want to move this into PM territory. But am I correct in my assumption that Toto, we're not in Missoura any more?

St Louis, MO has not had a yeshiva gedola in decades.

sarahd

Fri, May 11 2012, 11:28 am

St. Louis, France, has one, though.

sky

Fri, May 11 2012, 12:23 pm

sarahd wrote:

St. Louis, France, has one, though.

Thank you for clearing that up.

amother

Wed, May 16 2012, 9:41 pm

To the OP: one thing that I do want to mention.....you don't really mention so much about where you "fit in" just that you're NOT yeshivish..... one thing that I do see is that there is not a huge crowd of STRONG modern orthodox here. I think there is really only ONE dafka modern orthodox shul, Netivot Shalom, and I don't even know how big it is. Even in the shuls that have more of a MO crowd (Suburban Orthodox and BJSZ come to mind) the rabbonim seem to be more on the yeshivish side of things, and you see plenty of hats during davening. I didn't mention Ner Tomid because I don't know how many of the members there are actually shomer shabbos....I get the impression that it has a large contingency of people who have been going there for years and years but are not really frum....(some one please correct me if I am wrong).

What I mean is: a lot of the crowd who is less yeshivish is modern by default, because they don't really align themselves with the Yeshivish hashkafa.

anyway, it is a pretty nice place to live.... I would imagine that unless it's really important to you for example, to attend a women's kriyah on Purim, (just citing this as an example), I think you would find your place among a less yeshivish crowd. I do know that a lot of that crowd in the greenspring area davens at Lubavitch on Pimlico Road.

Also, I don't know where you fit in on the spectrum, but beth tfiloh is the largest MO congregation in the country. I don't know how many of the members are actually shomer shabbos (a few of my neighbors go there, and they're not shomer shabbos)..... but I do see people plenty of people walking in that direction on shabbos. And I believe that Rabbi Lerner's minyan at Beth Tfiloh has more of a serious modern orthodox crowd.

hatzlacha!!

wife2

Wed, May 16 2012, 10:24 pm

Housing here is very affordable. There is a main street called Park Heights. The closer you get to Park Heights and further down (Northern Parkway), the cheaper and less safe it is. You can definitely get a nice house in a good area for 200-300k depending on how nice you want it. You can get a semi-detached for $200,000 in a safer area. The further away you go from Park Heights (toward Cross Country and past) is safer. Greenspring is more expensive, and there are smaller houses that are closer to that area that are still safe.
When you come in the summer to visit, I would love to help you. Very Happy

wife2

Wed, May 16 2012, 10:26 pm

Rubber Ducky wrote:

From your description of the neighborhood it sounds like you only saw one corner of the Baltimore community. I would encourage you to rent initially so you can understand the neighborhoods better. My neighborhood, Cheswolde, is beautiful, middle class, and hashkafically mixed. It's in the City, not County.

I agree. Cheswolde is a very nice area! cheaper than greenspring, so many nice families, safer.

amother

Thu, May 17 2012, 1:01 am

A number of people said how you can't pin Baltimore people to a specific type. It's true! I'm a Baltimorean married to a New Yorker, and whenever he is trying to describe a Baltimorean with the typical stereotype terms, he just gives up and says, "Well, they're just, Baltimore!"
That's what I love about it, the mental and emotional space granted to you that you can just be your very own self Smile

willow

Thu, May 17 2012, 11:48 am

amother wrote:

Yup! That is why I miss it so much. Not that we are moving back to the US but I sure do dream of it some days.

abby1776

Tue, May 22 2012, 3:48 pm

I relocated to baltimore from monsey and cannot say enough good things about the community. All types. Very Welcoming and friendly. If you are willing to live in the park heights area, there is an organization that provides assistance with buying a home - like the down payment and a very low mortgage rate to encourage people to move to the area. there are tons of new town houses being built. I think the organization is called Chai - but I will defer to those residents of Baltimore who have been here longer to provide the name.

There are options in the 200s in the Greenspring area, but not as many. I know that there is a builder offering to build a brand new house new the Agudah of Greenspring for 380k but that may be outside of your budget.