This is what my dd's Lakewood school sent out to all parents

yummymummy

Wed, Jun 06 2012, 7:15 pm

marina wrote:

Ok, on one hand I am pleased that people, including very frum ones, are outraged.

On the other hand, help me to understand how this is worse than the klalos in the chumash. Do you get upset when your children are taught that if they don't follow the torah, they will be so starving that they will eat their young?

כט. וַאֲכַלְתֶּם בְּשַׂר בְּנֵיכֶם וּבְשַׂר בְּנֹתֵיכֶם תֹּאכֵלוּ

the way the klalos are taught is not "if you are lax in one mitzvah you will (literally) burn in hell". but I agree that the basic premise is the same, which is why the details of the klalos (and not just "Hashem will punish you") is usually taught to older students who can better understand schar v'onesh. I'm curious what age group this was distributed to? Also, stories of punishment like this are usually reserved for the truly wicked, I.e. Bilam boiling in semen (Gitin 57).

The problem with these scare tactics (and I heard plenty of them in school) is that they are rarely effective in the long run. Yes, after hearing a story like this the children may watch their hemlines for a week or two but eventually the memory fades and they’ll regress to their old behaviors.

As to the posters who worry that a story like this will turn children off of Judaism since Hashem is loving and compassionate, I think history provides us with enough atrocities that Jews have suffered (the inquisition, crusades, Holocaust to name a few) that a story like this pales in comparison. Reconciling those evil times with a merciful G-d is essentially the same difficulty as the one presented in this story and is another reason why sending home a story like this for children to digest on their own is terrible chinuch.

Chloe

Wed, Jun 06 2012, 7:17 pm

Our teacher in Pre-1-A told us this story. Pre 1-A!!! shock

I can't forget it, I even remember where I was sitting because it remains so clear in my mind. This has traumatized me immensely and even now as an adult I just can't put the feeling out of my mind of "are doomed in the next world chas vesholom".
I wish I can reprogram my mind and say that this story and the other similar horror stories we were told are not true. And that we are not doomed, Hashem wants to give us schar for every little mitzvah, not punish us through torture. But at this point I am still not sure what to think. I keep thinking that maybe these stories are true.

mommee

Wed, Jun 06 2012, 9:03 pm

I too am horrified, BUT-

Has anyone actually confirmed that this was indeed distributed by Bnos Yaakov?

When you read some of the comments beneath the link, some say that this was not distributed. So is this all just some fabricated event with a very shocking and disturbing story that has us all going on??? (I'd like to check with relatives of mine in Lkwd but it's too late to call them right now)

amother

Wed, Jun 06 2012, 9:22 pm

I have heard different and many similar versions over the years.
These are serious ways to get women to be overly tznius, and I have heard it being told to Seminary girls in Manchester, and in plenty of other chasidish girls schools.
They use all kinds of awful scare tactics. They work. Many of these people are very stringent and careful, they take these stories very seriously.

But I think, whose fault is it that some girls walk around in tight fitted clothes, that are too short or too loud in color, who is buying the clothes if not the mothers? If men look at these girls, and have a single bad thought, the sin is on the girl/woman. Who is to blame? The mother, for buying the clothing. We learned that as halacha, by the way, without any scary stories.

Dressing inappropriately is a big problem, always was, and gets worse and worse.
No one knows how to communicate effectively in a nice way to get people to want to listen and dress in a modest way.

Still I know plenty of people who sat through these and other similar stories, and still dress provocatively.
So....Someday we will all meet our Maker. We will have to answer for what we wore, every minute of every day of our lives.

PinkFridge

Thu, Jun 07 2012, 5:33 am

yummymummy wrote:

marina wrote:

It's one thing if we understand that we go through history and as a people we may suffer and look at how we prevailed (thinking of some of the magnificent Holocaust books about spiritual greatness - heroics and kindness). It's another thing if you say, if you do x you will see a horrible personal correlation y.

These concepts have to be taught by the right people in the right way at the right time.

amother

Thu, Jun 07 2012, 5:42 am

amother wrote:

Didn't read the entire thread, but this bothered me. I grew up in Lakewood not so long ago, and went to Bais Faiga elementary school. The teachers and principals helped develop in me a feeling of pride in being tzanua. They always taught us that we are daughters of the king, and therefore, need to act as such. (including dress, speech, where we eat, and the like). Even today, working on tznius makes me feel proud of being a princess, the daughter of Hashem. Please don't say that no schools have a positive way of teaching tznius. It is an "all or nothing" statement which is not completely true.

I also grew up in Lakewood and I find this horrifying. This never would've been sent out in the BY school that I went to. In fact, I asked my mother, who still has girls in elementary school what she would think if one of them came home with this, and she was horrified. She said this is NOT the chinuch in the school. They teach tznius as a special thing that we do because we are a princess and we are proud to dress/act/speak like a bas yisroel. This is not mainstream at all, even in Lakewood.

Chocoholic

Thu, Jun 07 2012, 6:43 am

amother wrote:

You are presenting tznius as the core of Judaism. Well I have got some news for you. It is not all Judaism is about. I honestly believe hashem is a whole lot more worried if we eat kosher, keep shabbat, go to the mikva and how we talk to/treat other people and how we raise our kids than about what we wear, every minute of every day of our lives. Rolling Eyes

amother

Ruby

Thu, Jun 07 2012, 7:18 am

Chocoholic wrote:

amother wrote:

Why do you think Hashem "cares" about one mitzva more than another?

Last edited by amother on Fri, Feb 22 2019, 12:05 pm; edited 1 time in total

amother

Thu, Jun 07 2012, 7:32 am

mummiedearest wrote:

marina wrote:

Ok, on one hand I am pleased that people, including very frum ones, are outraged.

On the other hand, help me to understand how this is worse than the klalos in the chumash. Do you get upset when your children are taught that if they don't follow the torah, they will be so starving that they will eat their young?

כט. וַאֲכַלְתֶּם בְּשַׂר בְּנֵיכֶם וּבְשַׂר בְּנֹתֵיכֶם תֹּאכֵלוּ

ime, the schools don't really teach that in any way that makes the kids think it applies to them. they kind of gloss over subjects like that. just like they teach that yehuda "tortured" tamar. they don't use specifics.

think you mean Amnon and Tamar, not Yehuda and Tamar.

yummymummy

Thu, Jun 07 2012, 7:41 am

PinkFridge wrote:

Recognizing how the Jewish people have survived and even risen above the terrible atrocities that have been visited upon them time and again doesn't resolve why Hashem would allow these events to occur in the first place. In addition, "if you do x you will see a horrible personal correlation y" is the exact definition of punishment and we all believe in schar v'onesh and mida kneged mida. Your bolded point is spot on and exactly why I wrote that a story like this should never be sent home for children to digest on their own.

Fox

Thu, Jun 07 2012, 8:13 am

Simple1 wrote:

I wouldn't like my girls seeing that story.

But this has nothing to do with Chareidim, Lakewood, or where BY is headed.

Actually I think BY education has gotten more positive in the past years - trying to emphasize dignity rather than shame.

I have several girls in Lakewood schools and this is definitely not typical. But I guess, as pointed out by some posters, we should be dan lkaf zchus, that this was a slip up. I did hear that school is one of the more sought after schools. I do think OP can speak up those who put out the newsletter.

Fact #1: Chinuch is a hard job, and anyone who has ever taught a class, let alone administered a school, can instantly think of dozens of instances in which he/she made mistakes.

Fact #2: There always have been and always will be crazy or just misguided people in every derech.

Fact #3: There is a certain type of personality that finds these kinds of horror stories motivating. I don't understand it, but then, I don't understand people who enjoy violent entertainment or even people who like asparagus. I'll admit that I don't particularly admire people who relate well to these stories (or watch violent movies) -- it seems like a pretty low level of spirituality. But Hashem seems not to have reached the conclusion that I should be in charge.

My DDs attended OOT BY schools, and I'm sure they heard this story. If all of the teachers had the seichel not to share it, I'm sure it was passed along at camp or sleepovers. It's precisely the type of thing girls would use to shock and torment one another.

Yes, we all know tznius is important. We also know that avoiding remote, dangerous locales is important, too. But we don't get worked up over every ghost story that gets passed along.

I'm sure the principal is kicking herself for allowing this to go out. I don't know the woman personally, but my guess is that someone she trusted came to her with the idea of sharing an "inspirational story." She okay'd it without enough investigation, and now everyone is in an uproar. If she's otherwise a good administrator and role model, cut her a little slack. We've all done similar things!

mummiedearest

Thu, Jun 07 2012, 11:12 am

amother wrote:

mummiedearest wrote:

marina wrote:

Ok, on one hand I am pleased that people, including very frum ones, are outraged.

On the other hand, help me to understand how this is worse than the klalos in the chumash. Do you get upset when your children are taught that if they don't follow the torah, they will be so starving that they will eat their young?

כט. וַאֲכַלְתֶּם בְּשַׂר בְּנֵיכֶם וּבְשַׂר בְּנֹתֵיכֶם תֹּאכֵלוּ

think you mean Amnon and Tamar, not Yehuda and Tamar.

lol. I stand corrected.

mummiedearest

Thu, Jun 07 2012, 11:19 am

EvenI wrote:

The thread title says it was sent out to the parents and most of the thread is discussing exposing the BY girls themselves to the story. Well, was it sent out to the parents for the parents to read or for the parents to read to their girls as a scary bedtime story? To me, that makes a huge difference.

either way, it is inappropriate. presumably the girls have a school uniforms. what they wear outside school falls for the parents to decide. sending this story to the parents says, "you are not good enough to make parenting decisions on your own. if you don't dress the girls to our specifications, your soul will be eternally tormented." not ok, in my book.

question on the story itself: supposing it is true, who decided what the experience meant? people like to put horrific morals to tales that are really beyond comprehension. I never did hear this story before this thread, but even as a kid I rolled my eyes at people who preach this way.

5*Mom

Thu, Jun 07 2012, 11:22 am

shalhevet wrote:

OMG. ... Believe me, if they sent that out in the most right-wing, closed BY in EY there would be a storm. This is not how we teach our daughters.

I am genuinely glad that you and I have had such vastly different experiences in Israeli BY schools, b/c this story is an excellent representation of the kind of "chinuch" my girls have received here, in a variety of schools, AT ALL AGES.

From the ganenet (!) who wanted to motivate the girls to make their brachos out loud so others could answer amen by telling the girls that whoever makes a bracha quietly to which no one responds with amen was throwing a "malach bapach," a terrible thing to do (my daughter was freaked out for a while over this) to the 3rd grade teacher who wanted to motivate the girls to stop the class politics and be nicer to each other by telling them a story about a girl who was mean to her friends in elementary school and as a result never had children, so said her rav (my daughter and many of her friends were in tears)--I could go on and on and on.

From my experience, most parents here are blissfully unaware of what their children are being taught in school and when things like this are brought to their attention they prefer not to rock the boat by speaking up. I, however, am a speaker upper and I have generally met with no understanding of the problem with these fear tactics from the teachers themselves nor support from hanhala in the cases that I felt were extreme enough to bring to their attention.

Last edited by 5*Mom on Thu, Jun 07 2012, 11:23 am; edited 1 time in total

lkwdmommy

Thu, Jun 07 2012, 11:23 am

So, now it is the next day and I'm sure there must be more than a few Imamothers with friends who send to this school. I'm wondering what the real story is.

I know the principal and she is an oustanding, caring mechaneches. I have heard about the school-always in superlatives-what a happy place it is and how loving the hanhala and staff are and what a phenomenal chinuch the girls receive. So something sounds out-of -sync.

sequoia

Thu, Jun 07 2012, 11:23 am

Fox wrote:

I'm sure the principal is kicking herself for allowing this to go out. I don't know the woman personally, but my guess is that someone she trusted came to her with the idea of sharing an "inspirational story." She okay'd it without enough investigation, and now everyone is in an uproar. If she's otherwise a good administrator and role model, cut her a little slack. We've all done similar things!

No, no we haven't.

Fox

Thu, Jun 07 2012, 11:40 am

sequoia wrote:

Fox wrote:

No, no we haven't.

Seriously? Well, I certainly have done things as a teacher for which I later kicked myself, and I truly believe that most teachers/administrators who are honest with themselves have, as well. And just as we often never learn when we've impacted a student in a positive way, we are often never privy to how we've affected a student negatively.

With anything like this, there's a big difference between a pattern of behavior and a single incident. If this reflects a philosophy of chinuch, then there's a problem. But if, as posters who are familiar with the principal have indicated, she is generally appropriate and effective, I'd probably toss it in the garbage and move one.