This is what my dd's Lakewood school sent out to all parents

MommyZ

Thu, Jun 07 2012, 3:43 pm

ribbonsandbows wrote:

Chocoholic wrote:

amother wrote:

I have heard different and many similar versions over the years.
These are serious ways to get women to be overly tznius, and I have heard it being told to Seminary girls in Manchester, and in plenty of other chasidish girls schools.
They use all kinds of awful scare tactics. They work. Many of these people are very stringent and careful, they take these stories very seriously.

But I think, whose fault is it that some girls walk around in tight fitted clothes, that are too short or too loud in color, who is buying the clothes if not the mothers? If men look at these girls, and have a single bad thought, the sin is on the girl/woman. Who is to blame? The mother, for buying the clothing. We learned that as halacha, by the way, without any scary stories.

Dressing inappropriately is a big problem, always was, and gets worse and worse.
No one knows how to communicate effectively in a nice way to get people to want to listen and dress in a modest way.

Still I know plenty of people who sat through these and other similar stories, and still dress provocatively.
So....Someday we will all meet our Maker. We will have to answer for what we wore, every minute of every day of our lives.

You are presenting tznius as the core of Judaism. Well I have got some news for you. It is not all Judaism is about. I honestly believe hashem is a whole lot more worried if we eat kosher, keep shabbat, go to the mikva and how we talk to/treat other people and how we raise our kids than about what we wear, every minute of every day of our lives. Rolling Eyes

Why do you think Hashem "cares" about one mitzva more than another?

Exellent question. Why do some people think Hashem cares more about tznius then other mitzvos like for example not throwing stones at other Jews or humiliating other Jews for dressing differently?

PinkFridge

Thu, Jun 07 2012, 4:57 pm

yummymummy wrote:

PinkFridge wrote:

It's one thing if we understand that we go through history and as a people we may suffer and look at how we prevailed (thinking of some of the magnificent Holocaust books about spiritual greatness - heroics and kindness). It's another thing if you say, if you do x you will see a horrible personal correlation y.

These concepts have to be taught by the right people in the right way at the right time.

Recognizing how the Jewish people have survived and even risen above the terrible atrocities that have been visited upon them time and again doesn't resolve why Hashem would allow these events to occur in the first place. In addition, "if you do x you will see a horrible personal correlation y" is the exact definition of punishment and we all believe in schar v'onesh and mida kneged mida. Your bolded point is spot on and exactly why I wrote that a story like this should never be sent home for children to digest on their own.

I get it. I was at a point where the Holocaust was starting to be discussed and referenced in a way it hadn't been before because of an attitude of it taking time, like 40 years, before it could be done.
Also, there's the global, and the individual.

amother

Thu, Jun 07 2012, 9:04 pm

This school used to be the modern school of Lakewood. ten years ago they changed their name and want to turn over their parent body. They drive the parents nuts about how the mother dresses. From fourth grade and up they measure every girls ponytail that it can't be too long once a month. This letter fits in to what they are trying to become. I can give you many more examples of how crazy this principal has become.

momsters

Thu, Jun 07 2012, 11:39 pm

""'This school used to be the modern school of Lakewood. ten years ago they changed their name and want to turn over their parent body. They drive the parents nuts about how the mother dresses. From fourth grade and up they measure every girls ponytail that it can't be too long once a month. This letter fits in to what they are trying to become. I can give you many more examples of how crazy this principal has become."""

Lashon Horah is definitely worse...we all have what to work on... Rolling Eyes

marina

Thu, Jun 07 2012, 11:56 pm

Quote:

But I think, whose fault is it that some girls walk around in tight fitted clothes, that are too short or too loud in color, who is buying the clothes if not the mothers? If men look at these girls, and have a single bad thought, the sin is on the girl/woman. Who is to blame? The mother, for buying the clothing. We learned that as halacha, by the way, without any scary stories.

Dementedox.

If men look at girls and think "bad" thoughts, the sin is on the girl? What is wrong with you? Do the men in your community have no sense of responsibility, of achrayus for their own conduct? Are they just savages who can't control themselves? What of a man who has bad thoughts about a ten or twelve year old? Isn't he a pedophile? Are the girls responsible for pedophiles too?

This is like saying, if I think or say lashon hora- it is your fault because you wore that ugly dress or said that stupid thing or posted something idiotic in a public forum. Or if I'm jealous or angry or any other negative character trait- that is your fault too for making me sin. Our girls are being trained that everything is their fault and then we wonder why people stay in abusive marriages.

I, as a mother, buy my kids normal appropriate clothing- short sleeves in the summer and skirts that they can ride their bikes in. My older daughter sometimes wears outfits somewhat above the knee. And any guy who thinks bad thoughts is a pervert and no, it's not my fault that there are sickos in this world.

We need to start a support group: Friends Don't Let Friends Smoke Crack and Post Online. I need a catchy name, though.

Jughead

Fri, Jun 08 2012, 12:13 am

marina wrote:

Quote:

this kind of thinking is only a few steps ahead of saying women who dress provocatively caused men to rape them.

lifnei iver does not mean that it is the mother's (or girl's) fault that men have "bad thoughts." a woman should not purposely try to arouse a man or lead him to do s/t assur. and a man who is having "bad thoughts" because he saw a girl in an above the knee skirt would probably have those same thoughts even if her knees were covered.

if a person is given a ta'avah, he (or she) is also given the strength and wherewithal to overcome it. it is not anyone else's job to do it for him.

and anyway, contrary to popular belief, protecting the men is not the reason for the mitzvah of tzniyus.

chani8

Fri, Jun 08 2012, 5:16 am

Wait a second...Did you say that tznius is not about protecting the men?

Oh right, it's about not saying H's name while having zexual thoughts. Hilchos Brachos.

So it's about brachos, and not saying H's name while seeing nakedness.

But some people posken that a man who sees knees is seeing nakedness. So I guess he should not make a bracha right then. I don't think women are allowed to make a bracha when seeing nakedness either, though, not even our own.

So, other than not being a stumbling block that someone might say a bracha while seeing our naked knees, is there another reason?

Perversity - Zohar. We don't posken by Zohar though.

Is this going to turn into a warm fuzzy thread about dignity?

LiLIsraeli

Fri, Jun 08 2012, 9:31 am

chani8 wrote:

I don't really have much to add to this topic, but I would like to say that according to the kitzur shulchan aruch, nakedness in front of women is different halachically than in front of men. Women may make a bracha in the presence of other women who are not dressed, even if she herself is undressed, as long as there are no genital areas exposed (hers or anyone else's).

amother

Fri, Jun 08 2012, 10:04 am

The school is an excellent school. My DD goes there and has long hair (in a pony) and was never once approached about it.

Do I agree with telling over this story no.

I asked my DD about it and she said it was told to them and she didn't like the story. Then she said Mommy you have taught us that we don't have to believe in maasalach so I put it out of my head.

In any school you won't find everything you like. That is why a parent has to be mechanech their children in their derech.

Overall the education in this school is excellent and I would recommend it to anyone.

amother

Fri, Jun 08 2012, 12:42 pm

marina wrote:

What makes it an excellent school? Tell us about the education.

I'm glad the school doesn't criticize your daughter over her long hair (!!!). What do you think about those girls whose mommies forgot to tell them not to believe in maaselach?

The hair comment was in response to someone saying that girls are harassed for long hair there, I was stating my experience is different.

What I like about the curriculum of the school that they reinforce the subject matter what they learn for (constant review) example Beir Teffilah. They learn it from the beginning and review what they have previously learned so that they don't forget the material. They also have a very hands on learning approach.

There are so many Dirachim out there I expect my children to be taught something I don't hold of. That is why I have discussions with my children to teach them my derech. If a parent chooses not to have such discussions with their children that is their loss.

marina

Fri, Jun 08 2012, 12:47 pm

Quote:

There are so many Dirachim out there I expect my children to be taught something I don't hold of. That is why I have discussions with my children to teach them my derech. If a parent chooses not to have such discussions with their children that is their loss.

Well, if you put so much responsibility on the parents and so little on the school, why not just send to public school and teach your values to your children? Do you really think your kids are not influenced by their school and peers at least as much as they are by your explanations?

Also, what about the English studies?

Barbara

Fri, Jun 08 2012, 1:10 pm

amother wrote:

And if your children are being taught that by following your [incorrect] derech, they are doomed to burn in h3ll for all eternity -- which is pretty much what that charming story is telling the kids?

ETA -- incorrect per the school, not per me. I have no clue what Amother does. Her face is a complete blank to me.