SIL said I need her "permission" to "use"

rosehill

Thu, Jun 14 2012, 3:17 pm

I wish I could remember in which Gadol's name I heard this, but I was told that when naming a child, it is one of the few times we have ruach hakodesh. Therefore, nobody should interfere. Not grandparents, not well meaning relatives and friends, nobody, because they do not have the ruach hakodesh, only the parents do.

So if your gut is telling you very very strongly that you are meant to have a daughter named Shoshana, I for one feel very strongly that you should do that.

Whether or not you go through the motions of asking your s-I-l "permission" to make her feel better, and keep the peace is up to you. There's value to finding the way of peace, but you also don't have to allow her to bully you.

Keep us posted, and B'shaah tova.

amother

Thu, Jun 14 2012, 9:43 pm

grin wrote:

food for thought from this week's parsha:

Zohar Bamidbar 176A wrote:

Conflict is a distancing of peace, and whoever is in conflict about peace is in disagreement with His Holy Name, because His Holy Name is called 'peace'.

Come and see! The world does not exist except through peace. When G-d created the world, it could not endure until He came and made peace dwell upon them.

remember - generally, it takes two people to fight.

OP here. Where does this end? What if a mentally unstable relative demands that you let her borrow your car? Your shaitel? Your diamond ring? If you balk at these demands, I will be here to remind you that it takes two to argue, you know.

I am not arguing with her. Having read through every post here, I realize my true feelings: I am not and will not argue. We are making our own decision using our G-d given rights. There's just no argument as she has no say in the matter. And to say "it takes two people to fight" - is just very silly and unfair. Like I said, if you refused to lend someone your diamond ring, you would not be guilty of fighting.

Hinda Rochel - wow, I think I disagree with every word of your post. Ashkenazim name after dead relatives = TRUE. I am NOT NAMING AFTER A LIVING RELATIVE! I am not naming after HER. I am using the same name she happens to have. Most people would not name any old name if their PARENTS and GRANDPARENTS have that name and are alive, otherwise, there's just no end to it in a big family.

I strongly resent the implication that I am being immature and fighting. Of all things in life that we can truly control - which is basically nothing - this is one thing Hashem gave the parents the ability to control. Any implication otherwise is offensive.

grin

Fri, Jun 15 2012, 12:46 am

amother wrote:

grin wrote:

food for thought from this week's parsha:

Zohar Bamidbar 176A wrote:

remember - generally, it takes two people to fight.

I hear you and I retract - if it's really that important to you, then go for it - b'sha'a tova

HindaRochel

Fri, Jun 15 2012, 1:28 am

amother wrote:

grin wrote:

food for thought from this week's parsha:

Zohar Bamidbar 176A wrote:

remember - generally, it takes two people to fight.

You are being ridiculous now. No one said you need to sacrifice everything you have to someone who is unstable. People are merely suggesting that you can think of other names and that to keep the peace you should. Obviously naming the child this particular name is so important to you that you can't think of any other name. Go for it. (BTW, no ruach haKodesh here. The child isn't born.) That's what you want to hear, so fine. Go for it. Your SIL is obnoxious and you are righteous. Happy now?

Not naming a person after a living relative means you do not name your child the name a relative CURRENTLY has. ie, if I were blessed with another child I would not give the child a name that a sister-in-law or niece or nephew or BIL had EVEN if I was naming from someone in the tenach.

amother

Fri, Jun 15 2012, 7:35 pm

HindaRochel wrote:

That's interesting. So...if you had 50 siblings in law, siblings, nieces and nephews (which is entirely normal, counting both sides of the family - that's approximately what we have) however do you come up with ANY name??? I mean, if the baby were a boy we would love to name after R' Scheinberg ZTL... but because I have a brother in law with that name, I can't - according to your logic. I'm not sure I'm the one being ridiculous. (To reiterate, a living parent or grandparent w/ that name would passul the name). I have lots more to say on the first part of your post, but I'll just pass on it for now.

HindaRochel

Sat, Jun 16 2012, 1:45 pm

amother wrote:

HindaRochel wrote:

Again, this is silly.
This is ONE name. That's all. If you have 50 relatives the maybe no one cares anymore.

m in Israel

Sat, Jun 16 2012, 5:39 pm

HindaRochel wrote:

Not naming a person after a living relative means you do not name your child the name a relative CURRENTLY has. ie, if I were blessed with another child I would not give the child a name that a sister-in-law or niece or nephew or BIL had EVEN if I was naming from someone in the tenach.

I have never heard this meaning before. We do not name after a living person, but if a family member happens to have the same name, that is not a problem unless it is a parent or grandparent. Unless you have very small families, it would be a bit much to say you don't use the name of any sibling, sibling in law, niece, or nephew. (I personally have 19 siblings and siblings in law, and over 20 nieces and nephews, bli ayin hara, many of whom have middle names! We are talking well over 50 names -- and why only nieces and nephews? What about my aunts and uncles -- 16 of them -- can I use those names?) My sister and my niece have the same name, my aunt and a different sister have the same middle name, and numerous nieces and nephews have the same name as each other.

Also, you are saying that if there is a grandparent who is no longer alive, for example, that once the first person names for them, no other relatives can use that name (because it is the name of a close relative)? Almost everyone I know had the phenomenon of recurring names in their family. For example, my husband's grandfather died rather young, and one of my husband's brothers has his name (I.e. his mother named her son after her own father). 4 of his siblings also named their sons the same name, as they wanted to name for their grandfather, so there is an uncle and 4 of his nephews with the same name. Similarly, my husband and my sister's husband learned in the same yeshiva. After the Rosh Hayeshiva was niftar, we named our next son after him. My sister named her son after him as well, a few years later. It never occurred to me that she couldn't use the name just because I had a boy first.

It could be that your family has this hakpadah -- but it certainly is not common accepted behavior in most of the Ashkenazi world that a name can only be used once in an extended family.

Tablepoetry

Sat, Jun 16 2012, 6:15 pm

amother wrote:

OP I completely agree with you. I don't see anything wrong with using the name.

I totally agree. And I absolutely know what it feels like to 'fall in love' with a name. Some people wait for years to use a name they love and connect to. It's not so easy to just 'compromise', just give in, give up your dream name because a SIL is being petty.

That said, I wouldn't dream of giving the name of one of my siblings, or dh's. I think it's ridiculous. Maybe that works in circles where everybody names after the same person, but in my circles people usually choose names they like, and it's just weird to call your own child the same name as your sister or brother.

But this is not a sister or brother. It's the spouse of a brother. Perfectly fine to use the same name, IMO. I'm just wondering though, why she felt the need to warn you NOT to use it? Did she realize how much you loved the name?

sarahd

Sat, Jun 16 2012, 7:50 pm

HindaRochel wrote:

Suppose a grandfather passes away. Is only one child permitted to be named after him?

Suppose it's a great-grandmother and your sister was named after that grandmother. Will you or your other siblings never give a name after that grandmother, since your sister has that name already?

granolamom

Sat, Jun 16 2012, 11:12 pm

take a deep breath...

when baby is born you will know if you still think shoshana is the right name. if you do, then use it.
if sil gets mad when you tell her the baby's name you can always play dumb. really? you REALLY meant that? oh, I thought you were just kidding, we all know the ruach hakodesh thing with parents and names....
and you can reassure her that you wont call your dd shoshy. and you can also offer up your name for her next baby girl.
sil is being silly/immature. she'll have to get over herself.

HindaRochel

Sun, Jun 17 2012, 12:09 am

m in Israel wrote:

HindaRochel wrote:

Cousins may share a name, that isn't so unusual. But this is a sibling by marriage we are talking about.

Tablepoetry

Sun, Jun 17 2012, 1:36 am

sarahd wrote:

HindaRochel wrote:

I actually wouldn't dream of naming my child the same name as my sister, regardless of who she was named after. It's just weird in my book.
But this is a SIL by marriage. Totally different.

Isramom8

Sun, Jun 17 2012, 1:43 am

Ruchel wrote:

Tova wrote:

shalhevet wrote:

bnm wrote:

Shoshana Greenbaum HY"D if your looking for whom to name after.

Please don't name after someone who died young and childless and under tragic circumstances.

Yes (she was an only child too - I met her parents in LA several months later when we were there for my brother's wedding and sleeping at a neighbor).

I would ask a shaila, but she died al kiddush Hashem so it may make it more doable.

Believe me, if you knew Shoshana hy"d (as I did), you would be honored to name a child after her.