Gluten free home, and shabbos guests (challah)

shalhevet

Mon, Jul 02 2012, 3:35 am

Seraph wrote:

amother wrote:

Seraph wrote:

octopus wrote:

your dh is ABSOLUTELY right. end of story.

He's probably right.
But the thing is, I'm not generally inviting guests left and right. Its usually people who need a place and ask me...

And I don't reallly "freak out", thats just my husband's terminology.
More like I explain to them before the meal about contamination, etc... and then when they forget and are about to put their dirty knife back into the chumus I say "Stop, don't put that back in..." too late, and they contaminate it, and then I am a little disappointed...

Wow.
I am TOTALLY with your husband.
Either figure out a way to do this or don't have guests. I would feel so uncomfortable and embarrassed if I were a guest at someone's home and made a mistake like that and that was how the hostess reacted.

First of all, thats why this post is here- so I can figure out how to do this best.

Secondly, I was just discussing this with my husband and I want to hear your opinion.

I was recently at a person's house and my son ran into her garden, nearly stepping on a plant that she had worked so hard to grow properly, and she cried out "No! Be careful! Get out of the garden! Don't step on that plant!"

Was she wrong to do that? Did that make her a bad hostess?

For the record, I think she was totally right to do that, totally within the bounds of how a normal hostess should act.

If you were at someone's house and they had an expensive breakable object somewhere, and you absentmindedly turned and accidentally pushed it so it was nearly at the edge of the table, about to fall off, would a hostess be rude and a bad hostess if she cried out to try to tell you to be careful and make sure to not knock over and break this object?

If you were a guest in a peanut allergic home, deathly allergic type, and you didn't realize how serious it was and you gave your kid bamba in the house, would the hostess be a bad hostess to tell you to please take it out of the house and wash your kid's hands and face very well to get off the peanut powder?

If the answer would be no, how is that different from alerting someone that their actions, if they aren't careful, will either make someone very sick or ruin something of the hostess, which someone contaminating the food with gluten will do- ruin something or make the hostess sick?

If the answer is yes, does that mean you think that a hostess has no right to protect her things or her health, and that guests can and should be able to ruin and destroy anything in the house inadvertantly, because pointing out when something bad is about to happen would make you a bad hostess?

I thought about this post some more and I feel even more strongly now. (again, excluding the peanut example which is a matter of health or even pikuach nefesh).

If you invite (or even if you didn't invite them) guests, you should be prepared to go through some discomfort/ loss so as not to embarrass your guests. If it's a risk you don't want to take, avoid it by taking necessary precautions. If you don't want to lose an expensive vase/ tablecloth, don't leave it out. If you do, you run the risk that someone might break/stain it. Or cover the tablecloth with plastic.

If you have a nurtured plant in your garden and you've invited little children, lock the door to the garden. Or tell them before they go into the garden not to go to area x, and supervise them. Otherwise be prepared to lose the plant.

If your child has an expensive, irreplaceable toy don't bring it out.

The only exception I would make is children behaving in an age-appropriate manner where the parents don't/won't stop them - I would intervene. So I don't think you have to sit there and smile while 2 year old Johnny deliberately throws your china across the room.

So to extrapolate to your situation - if you leave your dips on the table, expect them to get gluten in and don't say anything. And keep yourself extra on the side.

Seraph

Mon, Jul 02 2012, 3:39 am

Mommy3.5 wrote:

Celiacs suffer a lot from gluten, but for the most part it is not the same as a peanut allergy. I hate to compare the two. There are too many idiots that can and do serious harm for lack of belief in food allergies. and when people compare intolerance’s to FA's they are doing a real disservice to those of us who can die from eating the wrong food.

Real conversation,

Me: "My son is anaphalactic to Dairy please take your son away till he finishes the ice cream,"

Her: "Oh I totally understand! I am lactose intolerant and I get such bad cramps when I eat Ice cream, I feel like I could die!"

Rolling Eyes

You're right. An anaphlactic to something is very different from lactose intolerance. Celiac is somewhere between the two in severity.
Lactose intolerant people can't have a lot of milk, but are totally fine with cross contamination, and the only reaction to eating dairy is a bad stomach ache.

On the other hand, people with celiac also get stomach aches and similar, but celiac isn't just a stomach issue, its an autoimmune disease where the body starts attacking and destroying part of itself if it is exposed to even minute amounts of gluten. Celiac disease causes eczema, malnutrition and malabsorption, nerve issues, fertility issues, etc... and celiacs who eat gluten, even small amounts, are at much greater risk of developing colon cancer and other cancers of the gastrointestinal tract. People with celiac also can get sick physically for days, not just with stomach things, after being exposed to gluten. Every single time I've been sick and debilitated lately, its after my immune system was weakened via accidental exposure to gluten.

So its not just a "oh, I don't want a stomach ache" thing when it comes to avoiding gluten, as it is with lactose intollerance. It can cause serious health damage.

But yes, none of it is immediately being at risk of dying, chas veshalom.

(P.S. Because I cannot take a celiac test because I suffered so much when I tried reintroducing gluten into my diet, according to my doctors, I should just assume I do have celiac-not gluten intollerance-, and act accordingly.)

Seraph

Mon, Jul 02 2012, 3:49 am

shalhevet wrote:

The only exception I would make is children behaving in an age-appropriate manner where the parents don't/won't stop them - I would intervene. So I don't think you have to sit there and smile while 2 year old Johnny deliberately throws your china across the room.

So to extrapolate to your situation - if you leave your dips on the table, expect them to get gluten in and don't say anything. And keep yourself extra on the side.

The situation my husband had a problem with most recently, the kid was NOT acting in an age appropriate manner, and the parents had no control over their kids. Their kid dive bombed off the table onto my son, and my husband managed to catch him before hitting the floor, for example, and they were climbing on the book cases. The parents didn't stop the kids or anything, I don't think they knew how to control their kids.
So yes, I stepped in and stopped a kid from doing something rude/unmanners/age inappropriate/something that ruined it for everyone else, because his parents wouldn't.

Would it, also, be inappropriate for a hostess to stop a kid from spitting into a serving bowl filled with food if the parents wouldn't?

shalhevet

Mon, Jul 02 2012, 3:59 am

Seraph wrote:

shalhevet wrote:

I would include this in age appropriate (even if it's not age appropriate for well brought up children Wink

). I don't really know where the limit is for any given action. But there is an age where it is embarrassing someone (because they are like an adult for that inyan) and no longer enforcing chinuch rules (which I think is okay). Like if a (normal) 15 year old spat into a serving bowl I wouldn't say anything, just remove it. But if a 5 or 7 year old did it, I would comment in a nice, slightly humorous way (oh, sorry, here we don't do that) because I think it comes under enforcing house/chinuch rules. But I think the hostess should emphasize that we don't do this HERE rather than 'what kind of behavior is that from a 6 year old'.

Seraph

Mon, Jul 02 2012, 4:13 am

shalhevet wrote:

Seraph wrote:

shalhevet wrote:

I would include this in age appropriate (even if it's not age appropriate for well brought up children Wink

Maybe my kids just are incredibly well behaved, as are other kids I know, because it seemed really not age appropriate that when I was serving/plating salads to everyone (precisely because of cross contamination issues) a nearly 7 year old piled his plate with egg salad (I was facing the other direction), picked out the onions with his fingers, then stuck them back in the serving bowl, which on top of contaminating it with gluten, was, quite frankly disgusting. As soon as I saw what he was doing (meanwhile his parents were sitting right there and saying nothing), I took away the serving bowl and said "I'll serve you. And if you don't want the onions, please throw them in the garbage, not back into the serving bowl."
That was it.
My 4.5 year old son wouldn't do that, nor would any of his 4 or 5 year old friends. It definitely isn't age appropriate for a 7 year old to be putting food from his plate back into the serving bowl. (I can expect my 2.5 year old to do that.) So its not like putting out a breakable toy, and then getting annoyed when the kids break it.
(Though if my kids take out a breakable toy, I might let them play with it with guests, but if I see them acting wild with it, I will take it away from the guests.)

But my husband thinks I embarrassed the parents because it might have rubbed in the fact that they don't have control over their kids by the way I said something.
But I still don't think I was out of line.
My husband thinks I was.
He thinks that when guests are over, you let them do whatever they want, no matter how wrong/gross/bothersome it is to you, and just trash talk them afterwards amongst yourselves if you feel the need to vent, but to never correct anyone's behavior at your house, even a kid, because it might make the parents embarrassed.

Strawberry

Mon, Jul 02 2012, 4:47 am

Seraph wrote:

shalhevet wrote:

Seraph wrote:

shalhevet wrote:

I would include this in age appropriate (even if it's not age appropriate for well brought up children Wink

I could see my 4.5 year old doing this. I take out the onions for him usually but I can imagine that he might do such a thing if he were serving himself. I tell him to put the onions in his napkin if he finds any. We never really discussed serving bowls so I can see him trying it out.

I'm trying to understand the breakable toy part. A toy is a toy. It is made to be played with. I wouldn't take away a toy from a kid unless they were deliberately trying to destroy it. (Such as ripping the pages out of a book on purpose, not by mistake.)

I would not be comfortable in your home if this is how you treated me and my kids.

Guests are not you, they are different people. You need to be nice and polite even if you think they are wrong/gross/bothersome. I don't see the need to trash talk afterwards either. Don't have guests if these are the only 2 options for you.

Seraph

Mon, Jul 02 2012, 4:58 am

Strawberry wrote:

This kid was 7, not 4.5. I'm saying that EVEN my 4.5 year old wouldnt do it.

Quote:

I'm trying to understand the breakable toy part. A toy is a toy. It is made to be played with. I wouldn't take away a toy from a kid unless they were deliberately trying to destroy it. (Such as ripping the pages out of a book on purpose, not by mistake.)

My kids have a remote control car. If a guest was throwing the car, I would take it away.

Quote:

I would not be comfortable in your home if this is how you treated me and my kids.

Really? If I told your kid "I'll serve you, please don't put things back into the serving bowl" or if I took away an electronic toy that your kid was throwing, you wouldn't come back? Wow.

Quote:

Guests are not you, they are different people. You need to be nice and polite even if you think they are wrong/gross/bothersome. I don't see the need to trash talk afterwards either. Don't have guests if these are the only 2 options for you.

Yes, I know that. You can be polite and still stand up for yourself. Saying "Please let me do the serving" when that is what I was doing is not being impolite in my books. Its just being factual.
I don't trash talk after. My husband was saying keep mum, no matter what guests are doing, no matter how wrong, and if you feel the need to say something, better talk about what bad guests they were after they leave than point out anything to the guest while they are there so the stay is more pleasant for everyone.

fiddle

Mon, Jul 02 2012, 5:23 am

you seem to come off as a very uptight, tense hostess, and I would not either return to a home where someone tell my child they will serve them, or rebukes them in any way. thats a mothers job, hopefully the mother has enough sense to be on top of her children. I had guests once that the husband gave their 2 year old a delicate whiskey glass filled to the top. I was nervous they would break it but didnt say a word, or even let them notice my discomfort. the child ended up drinking the whole thing and stopped breathing, and they just laughed it away as I was screaming in my head. I couldve suggested they not give him the cup, but then maybe I shouldnt of put it on the table to begin with. thats my problem not theirs. and definitely not my place as a hostess to utter one negative word their way.

aside for all this - you would DIE if a crumb touched your plate? your children? your husband? from what youve spoken about in other posts, this is a new thing, nothing so drastic every happened until now, and for the sake of respecting your guests and proper hachnosat orchim, I would deal with a stomach ache after or my kids wildness, and a sneeze from my husband and swallow my words. and I am not referring to those who have serious allergies, we already know that yours is more of a discomfort than an allergy. and cross contamination is most probably not going to affect anything. its probably something else you ate.

just giving my two cents, sue me.

Strawberry

Mon, Jul 02 2012, 5:50 am

Seraph wrote:

Strawberry wrote:

This kid was 7, not 4.5. I'm saying that EVEN my 4.5 year old wouldnt do it.

Quote:

My kids have a remote control car. If a guest was throwing the car, I would take it away.

Quote:

I would not be comfortable in your home if this is how you treated me and my kids.

Really? If I told your kid "I'll serve you, please don't put things back into the serving bowl" or if I took away an electronic toy that your kid was throwing, you wouldn't come back? Wow.

Quote:

YOUR 4.5 year old knows about serving bowls because it is obviously something you talk about and make a big deal about. Most people I know don't mention it unless the kid actually tries to put things back in the serving bowl. That probably happens only once in a while and I can see a 7 year old doing such a thing if it was not discussed much or at all in the past. (It doesn't matter if you told them when they came over. It needs time to register and sink in.)

I would not feel comfortable being watched the whole meal for any mess ups. It sounds like you watch everyone like a hawk. I would also prefer that you leave my kids alone. If you have a problem with what they are doing, let me know. Don't discipline them/tell them what to do yourself. It's not your place.

I got bad vibes from all your posts on this thread. No, I would not be comfortable being a guest in such a situation.

shalhevet

Mon, Jul 02 2012, 5:51 am

One minute, this happened on Shabbos right?

OK, I wouldn't expect my 7 yr old to behave like this. But if it's a summer shabbos all kids are very tired - when a child is tired, you can take off 2 years behavior in how you can expect them to behave. Add he's not at home, so things are unfamiliar. He suddenly sees all this onion in his salad and doesn't really know what to do with it. Maybe at home there isn't onion in the salad (most children don't like it, maybe another time you have children over you could make some egg salad w/o onion).

There is also a problem with borer (no one mentioned that yet). On Shabbos when one of my kids doesn't want a part of the salad/dish, I often tell them to put it on someone else's plate (before they start) who will eat it. Until they are old enough to eat around it.

Maybe he has ADHD (one of the problems is that they don't pick up social cues), maybe lots of things. Maybe he just hasn't encountered a similar situation before. And maybe he was just behaving badly. So just take it off the table and everyone will eat other things.

m in Israel

Mon, Jul 02 2012, 9:25 am

I personally think it is worse to rebuke a kid for behavior that is NOT age appropriate. If something is within the normal range for that age, then a comment like "please don't do that here" is not as offensive as when they are doing something clearly abnormal. You are just enforcing limits that all kids need. When a kid is doing something very inappropriate (I.e. like your example of climbing the furniture), it is clear that either the kids has issues (ADHD was mentioned as a possibility), or the parents have poor Chinuch skills. In either case, pointing it out by making a comment will make your guests extremely uncomfortable, even if the comment is relatively neutral. It is highly likely that they are aware of/ sensitive about this problem.

In that case, I would agree with your husband that your only option is to grin and bear it, and then remember not to invite these people back in the future. If they are friends you want to get together with, maybe meet in a park, etc., where you won't need to worry about this child's behavior.

As far as the food issue, I agree with the many posters who said to serve the Challah completely separately (on a separate plastic tablecloth if necessary), clear off very well, and then have a completely GF meal. Your guests need the Challah for Halachic reasons -- but they don't need the dips! Let them dip with whatever you are using to dip, or skip them altogether. And if a kid occasionally does something gross, just ignore it and remove the offending food as soon as you can. (I've had kids take from serving bowls with their [rather dirty] hands, and other such instances upon occasion when having guests -- that's life, and if it is really going to get you upset/ uptight if things like that happen, maybe don't have guests with young children)

willow

Mon, Jul 02 2012, 10:31 am

Strawberry wrote:

Seraph wrote:

Strawberry wrote:

This kid was 7, not 4.5. I'm saying that EVEN my 4.5 year old wouldnt do it.

Quote:

My kids have a remote control car. If a guest was throwing the car, I would take it away.

Quote:

I would not be comfortable in your home if this is how you treated me and my kids.

Really? If I told your kid "I'll serve you, please don't put things back into the serving bowl" or if I took away an electronic toy that your kid was throwing, you wouldn't come back? Wow.

Quote:

YOUR 4.5 year old knows about serving bowls because it is obviously something you talk about and make a big deal about. Most people I know don't mention it unless the kid actually tries to put things back in the serving bowl. That probably happens only once in a while and I can see a 7 year old doing such a thing if it was not discussed much or at all in the past. (It doesn't matter if you told them when they came over. It needs time to register and sink in.)
[size=12]
I would not feel comfortable being watched the whole meal for any mess ups. It sounds like you watch everyone like a h[/size]awk. I would also prefer that you leave my kids alone. If you have a problem with what they are doing, let me know. Don't discipline them/tell them what to do yourself. It's not your place.

I got bad vibes from all your posts on this thread. No, I would not be comfortable being a guest in such a situation.

Very well said

Once again I really want an answer Sereph why isn't the advice given good enough?
It seems you really want it one way so then don't invite guests.
I will say it once more
1- In a friendly way explain your situation to them.

2- Clean up after Hamotzi

3-Then don't serve food after Hamotzi that you can't eat

Mommy3.5

Mon, Jul 02 2012, 11:45 pm

Seraph wrote:

Mommy3.5 wrote:

I am well aware of the difference. And while I am not a celiac I have intense stomach related issues when I eat certain foods, so I have an idea of what celiacs feel when they eat gluten. I also need to be very careful what I ingest.

I realize celiac is a very real disease, and I totally get the cross contamination issue. But I think that at some point the dips are the korban to the mitzvah. I keep my sons stuff in the kitchen till we are ready to serve him, and this fixes most cross issues. Its not an easy life, but it is something you can deal with. Many times my guests asked for something that my son was allergic too, and I plain lied and said I didn't have any. I realize challah is a different issue on shabbat. I agree with others that Pita is a great alternative.