If you eat chulent.........

smilethere

Thu, Jul 26 2012, 4:45 am

morahtikvah wrote:

sarahd wrote:

I asked my mother what her mother served Friday night, and it was gefilte fish, chicken soup, chicken from the soup, farfel and potato kugel. Cucumber salad and compote.

What's farfel? My husband's zayde made what he called farfel which was what is in Israel is called p'titim (he made is with a lot of oil and onion soup powder and I think and onion-I loved it), but I suspect that farfel is the shtetl was something different.

Same kind of idea, sometimes more crumbly shapes, sometimes like the ptitim. (No onion soup powder for me though)

smilethere

Thu, Jul 26 2012, 4:51 am

freidasima wrote:

Sarahd all these lovely explanations in these sforim, and I've seen many, are basically later explanations added on ex post facto, has nothing to do with yom shekulo shabbos because shabbos is the same for everyone. Whether they live in Yemen or in Krakow, in Newfoundland or in Mumbai whether now or 1000 or 2000 years ago, basically it was the same shabbos.

The only elements one must have are wine, pas (motzi). Nothing else is mandated. The business of meat and fish is lovely but it isn't what used to be done by the tanoim for example, everything depended on one's money, meats and fish were the equivalent of the most expensive foods around (in the middle east of that time, later in babylon) and by instituting eating them on shabbos it meant that one was honoring the shabbos with all the money one had.

Later on this "honoring with the best of the land" obviously changed from land to land, but also from era to era depending on economics.

Now on to chassidus. As all chassidig groups lived in eastern europe and mostly in the more south eastern areas, and with a few notable exceptions (Ruzhin for example) the first groups of dynasties weren't particularly wealthy, what the rebbe put on his tish for shabbos was a far cry from what most of his chassidim could afford. This goes on until the end of the 19th century, which is what most of you from chassidic background are talking about, when most chassidim whether in Poland, Galicia, Bukovina, Rumania, Russia, Ukraine etc, were quite poor.

Salmon? What a joke, You can be sure that most chassidim did not eat salmon every shabbos and in most cases never, as someone wrote, in most places there was ONLY the equivalent of carp/whitefish or other smaller fish. Cholent and kugel were possible because they were cheap. Eggs - everyone had a chicken - onions - fare for the poor. What were the other things mentioned? Chicken soup? How about soup that a chicken danced over...do you know the saying that when a poor man has a chicken it means one of two things, either he was very sick or the chicken was very sick...

That's how most chassidim lived until the early 20th century. There were a few areas where some chassidic Jews did well, western galicia, a bit of kongress poilen, bukovina - before world war I, but even there, after the wartime devastation many were improverished and let's not even talk about the Russian chassidim who after the war had to go underground.

So where do these "traditions" come from? Some are the figment of people's imaginations. A person today in his 30s who says "my grandfather the chossid ate like that because his rebbe did"...well that could be true especially if one is talking about those chassidim who moved to Antwerp between the two world wars, those who moved to Vienna, to the United States, England etc. But those who stayed in Eastern Europe in general...let's just say that for most very orthodox Jews, the years between the two world wars and especially the 1930s were not years of prosperity and people couldn't afford to eat all the things mentioned here.

A lot of it is what people in America ate after the war, and somehow when a rebbe ate it in 1955, there were those who loved to think that this is how that rebbe's great-great grandfather used to eat in 1855...yeah well...not.

A simple example is to look at what R. Elimelech of Lizensk used to eat, we know about it from stories and memoirs, when he and his brother R. Zusia were wandering...and to see what his 7th and 8th generation descendents eat today claiming that it is a direct continuation of their alter zeideh's minhogim. Oy vey. Nu be'emes.

This is not to mock anyone, to make fun of anyone but just to try and anchor all sorts of stories and fantasies in what was the reality of the time. Nothing wrong with saying that one is keeping up a tradition of what one's grandfather ate after the war in America, in western Europe or in EY, but to say that this is exactly what was eaten in eastern europe by rebbes in 1850 and to say that there was a kabbalistic reason for each and every item...sounds nice but not real.

Kabbalists and their seudos, on the other hand, are a very different thing and you won't find them eating cholent, kugel, eggs and onions or liver. There one will find different EY fruit, etc. with kabbalistic reasons, but that's again a totally different kettle of fish and definitely not salmon!

No figment of anybodys imagination. The seforim that bring these down are over 100 years old. Personally, we follow a lot of Sanzer minhogim. Therefore we follow the menu that Sanzer Ruv instituted. Perhaps he made them up, and based them on available produce, but believe me his intentions and meanings behind the menu are what I base my preparations of kedushas shabbos upon.
Now when did Sanzer Ruv live? 1793 - 1876 (Wikipedia)
Therefore at least for as long as this time I have traditions to eat these foods and follow these customs. We definitely have customs going back further that are documented in OLD seforim. B"H I come from families and Rabbonim that we track all the way back, therefore I do my best to continue in these ways and not break a chain.

saw50st8

Thu, Jul 26 2012, 6:24 am

Do you consider over 100 years old to be "old" in Judaism? To me that's pretty much current.

smilethere

Thu, Jul 26 2012, 6:37 am

saw50st8 wrote:

Do you consider over 100 years old to be "old" in Judaism? To me that's pretty much current.

Yes, but I'm answering FS who claimed that these are concepts bought to the USA after the second world war.
I therefore replied that I am basing it on something that was not imagined, nor invented but structured by people who's derech and customs I follow and not decided in the past 50 years.
I understand that MO do not follow dictates of human flesh, however as a chareidi, and as a chassidah I do.
So there.

freidasima

Thu, Jul 26 2012, 6:57 am

To answer everyone in brief.
Smilethere you made my point by saying it was the Sanzer Rov. I assume you are talking about the Divrei Chaim of Sanz? Sanz is western galicia and that was one of the most well to do, prosperous, and in terms of food, fruits, vegetables, everything, PLENTIFUL areas of all of eastern europe. Of course he could have eaten like that. But you can be sure that the majority of Jews of the time, living for example in the Pale of Settlement in Russia (millions!) were pretty poverty stricken and did not eat like that and couldn't afford a chilcken every week.

Hungary? Depends where. But again, numerically so small compared to the majority of eastern european Jews, and particularly chassidim. Look at my previous post where I list the areas where Jews lived better - western galicia, bukovina (where they could own land which they couldn't do anywhere else etc. at the time) etc. This was NOT the ukraine, Not eastern galicia, NOT the pale of settlement.

Fish - the minhog from waaaay back, sefaradi, ashkenazi, everyone actually was to honor shabbos with the most expensive foodstufs one could afford, The "bosor vedogim vechol matamim" is a lovely piyut but not a tzivui (to have both for example). If the best protein people could afford was fish they had fish, if they could also afford chilcken, great, that too. If they could afford meat - that was always considered the most expensive and the best.

Also Sarahd you are talking about pre world war II~
I am talking about pre world war I.
And as someone pointed out, a hundred years or even a hundred and fifty years in the life of the Jewish people is a drop in the bucket.

smilethere

Thu, Jul 26 2012, 7:12 am

As far as I am concerned my family descends from Galicia therefore these are the shabbos foods I eat.

What the rest of klal yisroel eats does not concern me other than curiousity.

I find it fascinating that my Adeny neighbour eats popcorn and nuts for her first course on shabbos, but I don't feel a burning need (or any at all) to tell her that what she is doing is wrong, and that no popcorn existed in Aden, and only cashews not pistachios were available.

FS why do you have such a drive to correct all the issues you have with chareidim.
Why the heck does it bother you what I cook for Shabbos.

I am happy to do it, for me it is oneg shabbos, this is the tradition I have - Honestly, who cares.
Why bother enlightening the masses. You are not a christian missionary so let everybody serve Hashem as they wish.

Honestly, these MO. They have a desperation to justify that only their path is the correct one, and any customs that chareidim have are imagined, based on rubbish, or just a way to make life complicated.
I let you live as you wish, let these stupid chassidim continue the way they do, even if you have an issue with their blindness.

saw50st8

Thu, Jul 26 2012, 7:32 am

smilethere wrote:

Honestly, these MO. They have a desperation to justify that only their path is the correct one, and any customs that chareidim have are imagined, based on rubbish, or just a way to make life complicated.
I let you live as you wish, let these stupid chassidim continue the way they do, even if you have an issue with their blindness.

ROFL

No one cares if you choose to cook the way you do.

However, this isn't "holy" its tradition. My family has lots of traditions and we keep them.

If it were a true minhag, then you would be in violation if you didn't eat this food every Shabbos. Maybe ask your Rabbi if it has the status of an actual minhag vs being a tradition.

freidasima

Thu, Jul 26 2012, 7:57 am

THANK YOU SAW!!!

Exactly. I am not trying to correct anyone but when I see people whether MO, Charedi, DL or secular, state things categorically without really knowing the background to it, I find it amusing. And I often correct misconceptions about things that come from misinformation, particularly on a public board so that someone sets the record straight and other people aren't misinformed.

That's all. I have nothing against how anyone wants to keep their shabbos and enjoy it. MO, charedi, DL secular, whatever.
But....To call it a longstanding holy tradition and try to show that it comes milechaschila from anything more than the common foods that were around in a particular area and what people could afford is however pushing the truth.

smilethere

Thu, Jul 26 2012, 8:18 am

saw50st8 wrote:

smilethere wrote:

To me it is holy, and I'm sure I would definitely need a Rov to be matir neder if I stopped eating these foods.

A very common chassidic phrase used by holy men in conjunction to chulent, is "Mit yeder bundel geit a malach' translated 'every bean is accompanied by a malach'. The obvious connotation is that the chulent is holy, and angelic. You don't like it, that's the kabbalistic take.
Personally, I don't eat the beans, but I definitely make the chulent and include beans in it.

saw50st8

Thu, Jul 26 2012, 8:21 am

OK then, enjoy your bean cholent!

shev

Thu, Jul 26 2012, 8:33 am

freidasima wrote:

You're not right sorry. I know you like to correct what people say, but there are thousands of chasidim that hold that this is shabbos food, you coming along and saying its not tradition is very disrespectful imo.
Every chasidus out there eats these foods every shabbos, we will go out of our way to make sure we have these foods, I grew up knowing that I have to eat at least a little piece o what we hold is machalei shabbos, and no it doesnt have to be salmon it could gefilte fish, or tuna.

gryp

Thu, Jul 26 2012, 8:58 am

Quote:

Now when did Sanzer Ruv live? 1793 - 1876 (Wikipedia)

This is just after the times of the Alter Rebbe. The whole Chassidus is still new if you want to count from Matan Torah. In Chassidus times though, you don't get much farther back.

That said, I don't imagine that Kabbalah talks about cholent beans at all.

gryp

Thu, Jul 26 2012, 9:00 am

saw50st8 wrote:

smilethere wrote:

For many things minhag and tradition is one and the same.

5S5Sr7z3

Thu, Jul 26 2012, 11:05 pm

My kids would eat cholent every single day of the year, no matter the weather, if I would only let them.

CK2

Fri, Jul 27 2012, 12:37 am

There are many reasons why chassidim eat the same foods every day.

I may not remember is perfectly, but I can check it up tomorrow.

An egg - Moshe Rabbinu was niftar on shabbos , so an egg is symbolic of food eaten as an aval.

Kugel- is called ke-igul like a circle again the reminder of circle of life. Another reason brought down from the Rema is that kugels have a top and bottom crispy layer to remind us of the manna that fell with the dew layer under and over as a protection.

Rebbe of Apta cited that the manna would have almost every taste that people wanted, but it would not taste like fish or onions. So we eat fish and add onions to our eggs.

There are many reasons for every food item down to lukshen. Chassidim traditionally eat noodles that are thin and long (not other pasta shapes) to remind themselves that like noodles intertwine which is symbolic of unity that's the way all Jews should be .

morahtikvah

Fri, Jul 27 2012, 1:01 am

A question to those of you who eat the same traditional shabbat food every shabbat: Do you and your families like all of it? Do you get tired of it? Do you like variation in your food during the week?

groisamomma

Fri, Jul 27 2012, 2:14 am

Vast knowledge of Jewish history and long responses about Yidden in Europe are irrelevant to the discussion about Shabbos food. Everyone knows that the people in that era were dirt poor and that many couldn't afford the traditional Shabbos foods. As a poster mentioned, they all TRIED to make these foods with whatever ingredients they were able to get hold of and if they couldn't manage it, then it bothered them. It meant something to them to eat these foods on Shabbos.

freidasima wrote:

Fish - the minhog from waaaay back, sefaradi, ashkenazi, everyone actually was to honor shabbos with the most expensive foodstufs one could afford, The "bosor vedogim vechol matamim" is a lovely piyut but not a tzivui (to have both for example). If the best protein people could afford was fish they had fish, if they could also afford chilcken, great, that too. If they could afford meat - that was always considered the most expensive and the best.

Actually, basar v'dagim IS a tzivui and while it is true that we are supposed to buy the most expensive food we can afford for Shabbos, we are still mechuyav to buy fish and chicken-yes, both. Fish and chicken/meat are clearly bought down in Shulchan Aruch in Siman 242 and 250. It lists these two foods by name. The Rama in 242 brings the minhag of eating kugel-he calls it "pashtida." Obviously, many people made kugel out of different foods, probably because of availability. But they were mechabed Shabbos with what they had and tried to stick to this as much as possible.

About salmon, Galiciana rebbes tried hard to eat particularly salmon fish if they were able to. It wasn't a money issue, it simply wasn't always available to them. As a result, they made do with the fish they had at the time.

The Rama in Siman 253 stresses the importance of eating hot foods on Shabbos and his source, the Ba'al Hamaor (who was one of the Rishonim that lived approximately 850 years ago) writes that one who doesn't eat hot foods on Shabbos should be suspected of not being a kosher Yid. This is the source for eating hot soup and cholent.

The Gemora in Brachos says that any seuda without "tzrif" is not considered a respectable seuda. It is explained as a hot stew, which is the basis of our chulent. Sephardim agree with this as well, they vary the ingredients, however.

The above is explicitly bought down in the Gemara and Shulchan Aruch (which we all agree are considerably older than the last few hundred years).

The rest of our ma'achalei Shabbos-specifically onions and eggs-are explained at length by many seforim and kabbalists from several hundred years ago who clearly state that these foods were eaten by our ancestors ON PURPOSE, not because it was a matter of convenience. I find it hard to believe that there is a poster (or two) here that insists that they are lying and I find it funny that it is up for debate at all.

freidasima

Fri, Jul 27 2012, 7:47 am

Groissamama all these explanations are sweet but they don't jive in terms of what we know historically. And your explanations of things appearing in the gemoro are a combination of misinformation and misinterpretation. Hot food, everywhere, always, and not only among Jews was always prized as being more worthy than cold food. Has nothing to do with cholent or stew.

A person who didn't eat hot on shabbos was accused of being a Karaite simply because of the issue of the interpretation of the use of fire on shabbos, this goes back far further than what you quote, almost a thousand years earlier and has nothing to do with cholent as we know it today.

the word "kugel" being "ke'ugal"...what a sweet explanation, well known, but added on so much after the fact. Because the word "kugel" and the dish as we know it isn't a Jewish dish at all actually, it existed when the first Jews came already to ashkenaz in the 8th decade of the 1100s (see the charter of the first group of Jews to settle in Speyer, it's the first Priviledge given to Jews anywhere in Ashkenaz - you can google it, I did). Anyhow it was eaten by Germans in Ashkenaz and the word is german, Jews took in on later and gave it their own "Hebraic" explanation..originally it comes from the german word of mittle hoch deutsch meaning round (which was later the basis of yiddish or ivriteitch as it was called.) Same reason BTW that a Kugel today in modern German is a bullet...round.

So now by the usual charedi tradition someone is going to say history and facts aren't important etc. Been there done that on all the threads about charedim and changing history to suit hashkofo where they admit that this is exactly what is done.

No one claimed that these aren't foods that are eaten today by chassidim or that they weren't eaten for the past 100 or even 150 years. But that doesn't make them holy just as a streiml isn't holy and a gartel or bekisheh isn't holy. It is traditional garb. That's fine. But it doesn't make it holy.

Folks the Torah is holy. the Talmud is holy. The lechem hapanim at the time of the Bais Hamikdosh were holy. But today? No foods are holy, not even bread. The garments of the cohen godol were holy. No clothing that anyone wears today are holy. Some people are confusing "traditional" and "holy". There is nothing wrong with calling something traditional and keeping to it, but the minute one is throwing around the term "holy" is cheapens the word which is used for things which are truly holy, like a sefer Torah.

willow

Fri, Jul 27 2012, 8:22 am

From my limited understanding and the responses on here it seems this is a chassiddish (spel??) thing Everyone else knows what traditional foods are and don't consider them holy. They may choose to eat it sometimes or all the time but most eat a varied diet of food on Shabbos.

sarahd

Fri, Jul 27 2012, 9:32 am

saw50st8 wrote:

sarahd wrote:

saw50st8 wrote:

What type of chassidus are you? I know plenty of chassidim and they seem to vary their shabbos food.

Which chassidim do you know? Most more-than-lightly-chassidish people I know serve smilethere's menu.

Some satmar. Some vishnitz. And Chabad.

I would be really surprised if your Satmar friends don't eat eat the traditional foods.