Found £20 on the floor of a bakery

amother

Tue, Oct 23 2012, 9:03 am

What would you have done and what do you think the cashier sould have done?

One evening, I went to get something from a bakery. There was one other woman in the shop at the time and one person serving behind the counter.

I noticed a £20 note on the floor next to the other woman, picked it up and asked her if she dropped it. She said it wasn't her.

I looked out of the door of the shop to see if anyone had just left but there was noone in the street, so when the person beind the counter came to serve me, I told her I found the £20 on the floor and gave it to her in case anyone realised they lost it there and came back. She put it in the till.

A week or so later, I went back to the bakery and it was the same person serving. I asked her if anyone had come to claim the £20 and she said noone ever did. I was kind of expecting her to say "so I gave it to tzedeka" but she didn't, so I asked her what she did with it and she said se just put it in the till.

What do you think she should have done? It was a while ago now but I was curious as to what others thought.

shalhevet

Tue, Oct 23 2012, 9:19 am

I don't know what the halacha is, but it certainly isn't to give it to tzedaka. If I find money which belongs to Sara Cohen or Moshe Levy, who said I can steal it from them and give it to tzedaka?

If you find an unmarked single banknote in the street, it's yours, since no one can claim it has a siman (sign). But I don't know if the halacha would change since it's on the bakery's property. The money either belongs to you or the bakery - ask a rav.

amother

Tue, Oct 23 2012, 9:22 am

I don't understand the tendency for people to think that if they find an aveida that can not be returned to its owner (and does not have to be, al pi halacha), they should then give it to tzedakah. The same G-d who commanded you to return lost objects dictated situations when that rule does not apply. The aveida then belongs to the finder, pure and simple, to be used for whatever he/she wants, just like earned money. It is nice, of course, to give it to tzedakah, but it is also nice to give your paycheck to tzedakah. There is no specific reason why one should give an unreturnable aveida to tzedakah anymore than one's paycheck and it always seems to me a bit of not quite believing in the halachos of hashavas aveida. (That was a general rant about this general phenomenon.)

That said, in this case, you found money, which by definition has no siman and yei'ush is automatically assumed to have taken place. Al pi halacha, you could have taken the money then and there. You went above and beyond in trying to find the owner. Technically speaking, if you had given it to the cashier just in case the real owner came back and never gave up your rights to it, she should have returned it to you the next week. If you gave it to her outright (no plans of keeping it), then it's really hers to keep and do with as she pleases. A lot would depend on what was said/communicated when you gave the money to her.

But I don't understand where tzedakah comes into the picture.

Raisin

Tue, Oct 23 2012, 9:23 am

I think you did the right thing to give it to the bakery, since someone could have come in and claimed it. Since no one claimed it the bakery is doing nothing wrong by holding on to it. You might have a case for saying it should go to you since you found it but I don't think it is worth making a fuss over.

amother

Tue, Oct 23 2012, 9:26 am

I wasn't suggesting that she should have given it to tzedeka, just that since she said noone clamed it I thought she might offer more info like

"I gave it to tzedekah" or

"I asked a Rav and he said..." or

"I left it with my boss to deal with" or

"We're waiting for another week to see if anyone says they lost it."

unihockey

Tue, Oct 23 2012, 10:22 am

It sounds like the cashier lady really wasn't paying attention or invested in a solution per se, just put money where she always puts money and didn't give it another thought.

Since this has happened to me a couple of times, with disappointing results, I now leave a note instead, with the place of business, saying, "money found, if you think it is yours and can identify it, please contact xyz at 123" and then I assume the money is mine unless claimed. Nice to give at least some to tzedaka, but not, I think, required.

I think you handled it fine, and I think she should have offered it back to you or at least been more invested in doing the right thing, but I think she didn't really think anything other than "money in bakery, money to till".

imabima

Tue, Oct 23 2012, 10:57 am

A few years ago I found a $50 bill on the floor in a very small falafel shop. I waited a minute after I saw it, walked over and picked it up, and walked out of the store to call my Rav. He said it was mine, no strings.

Now, if someone walked in the shop while we were still there and asked if anyone found their $50, I would have given it to him.

amother

Tue, Oct 23 2012, 1:08 pm

marshmellow wrote:

I heard it said that if for whatever reason one has nowhere to give tzedakah, if they are in the street or something, that if they drop a few coins on the road, Hashem will ensure that it will end up in the hands of someone who needs that money.

Interesting! I actually did need the money at the time which is why I was kind of hoping in the background that if the money had not been claimed by the person who lost it that I would get it.

Also, a few months before, I offered to help set up a meal in a shul but there was a misunderstanding between me and the Rabbi and he thought I would be staying for the meal while I thought there were no tickets left and anyway, I didn't have the money to pay £20 for a meal. He told me I'd still have to pay since he turned people away so that there was space for me and they would lose the revenue from my place which could have been taken by someone else. I was really upset because I had no job, no money, and no idea when I would be able to find work, but I paid the £20 anyway and vowed to eat rice for a week.

On the way back from the Rabbi's house to drop off the money, I found a £20 in the street. There was noone around and the nearby shops were shut, so I kept the money and was very relieved.

amother

Tue, Oct 23 2012, 1:13 pm

unihockey wrote:

Since this has happened to me a couple of times, with disappointing results, I now leave a note instead, with the place of business, saying, "money found, if you think it is yours and can identify it, please contact xyz at 123" and then I assume the money is mine unless claimed. Nice to give at least some to tzedaka, but not, I think, required.

How can they identify it?

unihockey

Tue, Oct 23 2012, 1:34 pm

amother wrote:

unihockey wrote:

How can they identify it?

If they can say, "I left a $20 bill in xyz place on abc day" then that's good enough. I.e. they know the kind of bill or whatever. I know that the few times I've lost money of that amount, I definitely knew that I had dropped, say, two twenties.

shalhevet

Tue, Oct 23 2012, 3:31 pm

unihockey wrote:

amother wrote:

unihockey wrote:

How can they identify it?

As far as I know, it means nothing in halacha. You can't claim that a bill was yours, since it doesn't have any simanim (signs). If you have a wad of bills tied in a certain way, or a particular combination, or a purse (pocketbook), or some other particular identifying sign, that's different.

I am still not sure the money belongs to the finder in a store, rather than the storekeeper. If someone 'finds' a $100 bill on your kitchen floor when they pop around, it most certainly belongs to you. I will try and ask dh.

cubbie

Tue, Oct 23 2012, 4:03 pm

There is no way she could have offered it back to you a week later, she would have been risking her job, if her boss would have seen her putting her hand in the till and taking out money and stam handing it to her customer, that would have been wierd, and why should he believe your story of finding 20 pounds the week before and now you claiming it, or if another worker would have seen and told the boss, that's what would have been on the security camera, no sound just her actions. Same thing when you gave her the money, she could not have put money in her pocket or any place other than the till. You made a choice to make it her responsibility and she did the only thing that she could while working.

amother

Tue, Oct 23 2012, 4:05 pm

de_goldy wrote:

Honestly - if I was a cashier I would rather you dealt with it yourself. She probably wasn't looking for extra work, and trying to figure out who lost it, what to do with it, etc. was probably just a headache to her.

In that case she could have told me to deal with it myself. I wasn't asking her to do extra work or figure out who lost it, she had to do nothing but say "sure, here it is, a lady found it on the floor and handed it in" if someone came in and asked if anyone had found the £20 she lost last week. She didn't have to actively seek out the owner.

shalhevet wrote:

I am still not sure the money belongs to the finder in a store, rather than the storekeeper. If someone 'finds' a $100 bill on your kitchen floor when they pop around, it most certainly belongs to you. I will try and ask dh.

I don't know if the halacha is the same for both situations but I think the situations are different because a $100 on the floor in MY kitchen most likely really was mine in the first place since the only people who have been in my kitchen recently are members of my household and you (and you'd know if you dropped it.)

In a shop, the money that belongs to the shop is kept in a till behind the counter. There is an area in front of the counters which is frequented by members of the public. If the money is found there, it was most likely dropped by a member of the public, it didn't somehow fly out of the till and over the counter and land in the middle of the floor.

Ribbie Danzinger

Tue, Oct 23 2012, 5:16 pm

Quote:

In a shop, the money that belongs to the shop is kept in a till behind the counter. There is an area in front of the counters which is frequented by members of the public. If the money is found there, it was most likely dropped by a member of the public, it didn't somehow fly out of the till and over the counter and land in the middle of the floor.

I seem to remember that that is the halachah.

unihockey

Tue, Oct 23 2012, 8:18 pm

shalhevet wrote:

unihockey wrote:

amother wrote:

unihockey wrote:

How can they identify it?

I'm not sure this is correct, that "it means nothing in halacha". If someone can identify clearly what kind of bill they dropped, and I know I found exactly that, I have heard that you are allowed to take that as a siman. It's certainly how I would want to be treated. Even if some hold that it would be not strictly required as a siman, it probably falls under derech eretz or similar.

amother

Tue, Oct 23 2012, 9:32 pm

shalhevet wrote:

I think that the chatzer of a person can be koneh even shelo mida'ato ... so, yup, probably belongs to the storekeeper.