I hope this site is not bringing down good frum women!

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black sheep

Wed, Dec 19 2012, 1:17 pm

squirrel wrote:

This has been bothering me ever since I heard about this site, it seems like many women out there are coming here for advice without knowing who they are getting it from.
There are all types on here ranging from ultra orthodox to modern. Many are asking questions that belongs to a rav

I feel that some women here are made to feel stupid for being so frum and I am sure they are wondering that if everyone is doing so then why should I be so 'frummed out'!
It also surprises me to see how things have changed drastically over the last few years, im so afraid to raise my children is this crazy world.
So to those who have given their opinions that I.e. oral relations, zera levatala, shomer nagiah (before marriage). is okay, please think before doing so and the same to those frum Bais Yaakov girls coming here with halacha questions please remember that anyone here could be answering your questions, (would you ask any modern person walking down the street?).
Thats why we have so many rabbanim who make themselves available for us.

hearing different opinions and different derachim are part of learning and growing.
if anyone feels that they don't need to be so frum because other people aren't, well their emunah and avodah weren't that frum to begin with. a child follows his parents ways because its what everyone is doing. if an adult is following the frum way because she thinks there is no other way of being jewish, well she is overdue for an education!!!

you are upset by this site because it exposes frum women to new ideas. but that's exactly why so many of us LOVE this site!!! I don't believe a person's avodas Hashem is complete if she is doing it because she thinks it is the only possible way out there. once you know what's out there, and I also mean in the non jewish world but so much more so among the jewish world where there are people serving Hashem in so many different ways, then what you do becomes meaningful. there is no meaning in doing something that is the only way. there is a lot of meaning in choosing the way you serve Hashem, even if the way you choose is the way you've always been doing it. you can't choose if your only choices are "the only way" or "burn in gehinom."

obviously halacha shailos are not for an anonymous internet forum. but on the other hand, even after asking a rav a shailah and following his psak, a frum woman might be curious as to what other rabbanim say about the same situation, and she will get a wide range of ideas from this site. my husband goes to a halacha shiur where they learn from a wide range of poskim, chasidish, yeshivish, and modern orthodox. it helps understand perspective. you don't have to suddenly change your ways because you heard a psak that is different than you are used to!!! but it can teach you to think critically and to be open minded, and even to learn more about Judaism, by understanding it from different points of view and positions of practice.

you might not take a psak from anyone walking down the street. but why in in the world wouldn't you want to have intelligent conversation with anyone walking down the street? what are you afraid of?

judaism is not a cult. (or at least it shouldn't be!) we welcome diversity of thought and practice. shivim panim latorah - and all are true!!!

outoftownmother

Wed, Dec 19 2012, 1:18 pm

I don't have a problem with the OP message. It is simply a reminder to women who describe themselves as "frum" to be cautious. I don't know whether there are sites comparable to this one which are devoted to women who categorize themselves within a more narrow range of religious Jewish observance, ie chareidi, chassidish, modern orthodox, etc, but apparently there's a wide range of stringency among this site's members and we are cautioned to take that into account. Can you tell that I live out of town?

mummiedearest

Wed, Dec 19 2012, 1:18 pm

squirrel wrote:

zaq wrote:

squirrel wrote:

Also people seem to be offending those who are more stringent with halacha. .

But for this line, I'd have "liked" your post. People are equally guilty offending those who are less stringent, making it painfully clear that they consider "not frum" or "not really frum" or "can't trust their frumkeit" anyone who doesn't observe the stringencies that they do. And there a whole lot of ignorance out there about what is halacha lemoshe misinai and what is an optional stringency and what is not even a stringency but a particular group's social norm that has no relevance to any other group.

Zaq you are right and I wanted to include that in my post as well - not to degrade those who do what some dont do, and more frum should not degrade either but my point here was that there are some who hold differently and are coming here for some questionable opinions and going by that. I am not so concerned of the reverse happening iykwim.

why are you not concerned with the reverse happening, squirrel?

I do have a problem with people who say that certain groups are more frum/more stringent with halacha. as far as I can tell, within frum groups everyone is supposed to be adhering to halacha. there are groups that are considered "more frum" (which isn't true, imo) which are in fact more chumra-centric. chumras don't make anyone more religious than anyone else. IF YOU FOLLOW HALACHA, YOU FOLLOW HALACHA. and yes, that includes following what your own posek says. even if that posek is *gasp* modern orthodox. and ftr, I am not modern orthodox. I am not yeshivish either. I am what I call "just plain frum." and the ravs that I follow are what one of my brothers refers to as "80's frum." I avoid asking the local yeshivish ravs unless I am desperate, because I do not share their hashkafos. having heard some of their halacha shiurim, I do feel that following them would bring me far away from halacha, and I don't want that.

there are a lot of unhealthy ideas floating around in all directions, squirrel, and sometimes we just have to trust our own minds and our own values.

zaq

Wed, Dec 19 2012, 1:21 pm

squirrel wrote:

I wanted to include that in my post as well - not to degrade those who do what some dont do, and more frum should not degrade either .

And you omitted that because....?
Because in your obvious prejudice against people less right-wing than you, you didn't think that they might be offended by your attitude. You think maybe left-of-center women are lacking in intelligence and don't know when they're being insulted?

let me give you a mashal:

A woman walking with her twin ds and dd is accosted by a neighbor who proceeds to make a host of derogatory remarks about both children. The mother gives back as good as she gets, letting the neighbor know exactly how low she is to deride her ds.

The dd says, "But Ma, what about me? The lady insulted me, too." To which the mother responds, "Well, yes, I wanted to include you, too, but I didn't think that it would matter to you so much."

Capisce?

shabbatiscoming

Wed, Dec 19 2012, 1:22 pm

outoftownmother wrote:

But all of the women on this site are frum.

squirrel

Wed, Dec 19 2012, 1:23 pm

Chayalle wrote:

Why are you on this site if you feel that way?

Sorry but I dont see a connection between my post and your reply, I enjoy this site very much.
And for those thinking I should hold a shiur sorry but I am far from a rebbetzin. And I never said oral relations is or isnt okay (for me it is). Before bashing, read my post.
Also I am not the frum type or modern (somewhere in between), I am not taking sides or offending anyone. Just reminding people that this is a support group and advice is okay but 'paskening is not'.

marina

Wed, Dec 19 2012, 1:24 pm

I think this site does a service to women of all kinds because it alerts them to different and valid forms of practice.

Barbara

Wed, Dec 19 2012, 1:25 pm

shev wrote:

Why is it everytime someone states their opinion people come to bash what she says? This is what she holds, why can't it stay at that?

Because her opinion is nasty, mean spirited and ill-informed, and should be challenged.

I'll give you an example. There is a restaurant in my neighborhood as to which there have long been questions. Recently, on another forum, someone asked "is it kosher." Someone answered "no." Well, that's not the right answer. The right answer is "Some people have questioned that restaurant because of X, Y and Z. Also, its supervised by Rabbi A, and there are people who don't rely upon his supervision because of B, C and D." They might go further and mention that Rabbi E and F advise people not to go there, but Rabbi G is OK with it. That provides people with information about the restaurant. "No" stops discussion. So does "yes" by the way. And neither is true.

Same here. Presumably, Squirrel would not rely upon my rav and, indeed, would think that his rulings are -- in some cases -- outside the bounds of halacha. That's fine. She'd probably be shocked to find that I feel the same way about her rav. But there is a real difference between:

[*]In posing halachic questions here, everyone should be mindful of the fact that people come from different branches of Orthodoxy, and decisions of one branch are often not accepted by others. AND

[*]There are posters from another group here, and you should all be aware that their practices are not legitimate, and allowing them to post what their rabbis allow brings down women who (unlike them) are actually frum.

Squirrel did the latter.

Chayalle

Wed, Dec 19 2012, 1:27 pm

squirrel wrote:

Chayalle wrote:

Why are you on this site if you feel that way?

My reply was my first thought - gut reaction - when I saw the title of this thread. If you feel it is bringing down frum women, why would you be on this site?

Because I don't visit sites if I feel they would bring me down. And I would leave if I felt that.

MaBelleVie

Wed, Dec 19 2012, 1:27 pm

marina wrote:

I think this site does a service to women of all kinds because it alerts them to different and valid forms of practice.

Many members of this site also do a tremendous disservice by constantly mocking and invalidating those valid forms of practice.

imasinger

Wed, Dec 19 2012, 1:33 pm

I have yet to see a thread asking some kind of shaila where someone DIDN'T tell them to AYLOR.

squirrel wrote:

If we are all adults and responsible for our actions then why are so many women having affairs out of their marriage? (and those people might be some who we are getting advice from.) All im doing is pointing something out to people, something for people to think about.

Guess what? Some of those people that you may imagine are so pure are the ones caught in the traps of affairs, and who knows what else. And maybe this site provides them with resources to change. You never know what is going on behind closed doors -- and that includes with the people whom you know more casually IRL, too.

Bottom line: Your original title and post come across as condescending and holier-than-thou, which is why you are getting angry responses to the serious question of "would we look at things here that we might choose not to if it weren't so tempting and easy on the computer?"

Barbara

Wed, Dec 19 2012, 1:33 pm

squirrel wrote:

Also I am not the frum type or ~~modern~~ Charedi, Chassidish or Yeshivish (somewhere in between), I am not taking sides or offending anyone. Just reminding people that this is a support group and advice is okay but 'paskening is not'.

There you go. You're neither frum nor Charedi, Chassidish, Yeshivish. Not offensive at all, is it?

And FTR, of course, I do think all those folks are frum. Its called making a point.

black sheep

Wed, Dec 19 2012, 1:34 pm

you know, on second read, I am really offended by the title of this thread!

"I hope this site isn't bringing down good frum women!"

I am offended on two levels.

one, I am insulted that as a frum woman, you think I cannot handle hearing/reading a wide range of ideas.

two, I am insulted that as a women who might not be as machmir as some others on this site, you think stating my thoughts, ways, psaks, will bring them down.

judgmental much?

mummiedearest

Wed, Dec 19 2012, 1:37 pm

squirrel wrote:

mummiedearest wrote:

hmm. maybe I'm more stringent by sticking as close to halacha as I can without adding on more "obligations" for people to consider halachos. hmm. so maybe I'm being brought down by women who are toting chumras/minhagei shtus as the way to go. I think I'll quit this site because I can't be bothered checking with my rav before taking on something new, because r' imamother says it's halacha to cut off the ends of the roast before baking it so it must be true. after all, it was done in the alter heim. never mind that that had to do with the size of the roast pan...

squirrel, if you're so concerned, start a women's shiur in your neighborhood. you'll get to talk with women who are likely to be similar to you in terms of philosophy, and no one will discuss marital intimacy issues unless they have problems with social propriety. if you want to discuss the origin of cutting off ends of roast, that's fine. but if you convince someone that they must cut off the end and throw it out, keep in mind that that's bal tashchis. so that would be bringing someone down.

my point? you have no way of knowing that your own opinion, offered in complete innocence, is not bringing someone else down. at some point you need to realize that we are all adults (aside from the trolls) and that we are all responsible for our own actions.

now THAT is an interesting question, and I think it can be a whole other thread. so here's my answer:

let's follow the laws of logic. we'll call "we are all adults" A. "responsible for our own actions" will be B. "women having extramarital affairs" will be C. "individuals behaving in a responsible manners" will be D.

A + B does not equal D.

A + B can equal, but doesn't have to equal C.

C does not equal D.

in short, we are all adults and responsible for our own actions. and this is true of us from the age of 12. do you know anyone who has not sinned AT ALL from the age of 12? I very much doubt it. from that age on, we are not EXPECTED to be perfect. that is just the point at which our parents are no longer responsible for our sins. so if we sin, we do it to no one's detriment but our own (mathematically speaking. obviously our sins can affect others). if we eat a cheeseburger, we are harming our own souls, no one else's. and no one else is responsible for making her eat a cheeseburger, even if they mentioned that they thought it might taste good. however, the fact that a woman ate a cheeseburger once does not invalidate her opinion on child-rearing. the two are separate categories.

as for women who have extramarital affairs, I assure you they know it is wrong within the context of a jewish lifestyle. and yes, they are responsible for that. and they were adults when they committed that particular offense. being an adult and responsible for our actions does not mean that all our actions are smart, nor does it mean that all our marriages are stable and affectionate. I do not think that extramarital affairs are right, and certainly not halacha. but that is also something I'm not going to ask posters about. if they openly state that they have had extramarital affairs, I would not ask their advice, probably on anything. because that is something that goes against my entire value system, and I don't think her advice would come near helpful to me. but I'm also not going to assume that anyone who has a legitimate hashkafa that happens to be drastically different than mine is a horrible sinner who can bring me down. and if I come across an opinion that I never heard of before, I will ask a shaila about it. in fact, that's something about this group of women that can be beneficial in many ways. there have been threads in the past about young women who thought that birth control was 100% assur at all times and never thought to ask a shaila about it until they came across it on this site. that kind of thing can literally save someone's life.

in short, I think these conversations would be less heated if people would try to realize that no one here is really "less frum" than any other "good frum woman" here. we all follow halacha, and those who openly state that they don't are struggling with it. we all have our struggles, and this is a good place for those struggling to find some sort of support. if you really feel this site has the potential to bring you down, you need to consider your membership keeping in mind that you make your own choices.

zaq

Wed, Dec 19 2012, 1:37 pm

You see, squirrel, it's all in how you say it.
The proper, respectful, helpful, nonjudgemental, noninsulting, nonconfrontational, nonprejudicial way to say what you said would have been something like this:

PSA to all members: please remember that this site is a discussion group comprised of women from the full range of Orthodoxy, ultra-charedi to ultra-liberal, and from communities with a wide diversity of customs and hashkafot. The purpose of this site is to exchange ideas; no one here is a posek, and every member's posts reflect her individual hashkafa and understanding of halacha which may or may not agree with yours. Some posted information may be incorrect, or not applicable to your community, or may clash outright with your community's hashkafah or practice. Therefore, exercise caution. Do not consider any post to be a psak halacha, bring your shailos to a rav, and evaluate expressed opinions with at least the same level of critical thinking you would use when having a face-to-face discussion with a relative stranger.

See? No name calling, no singling out any group, no disrespect, no value judgments, NO OFFENSE GIVEN.

Isramom8

Wed, Dec 19 2012, 1:42 pm

I think that all the good, frum women on Imamother should be aware of what the site is and is not. If you can't do that then I agree with the advise not to be online.

costanza

Wed, Dec 19 2012, 1:45 pm

The OP didn't write anything offensive in her post - including the title. She had some thoughts and put them out there.
Just the way everyone is pouncing on her and giving her lessons on how not to offend, they should try to relax. Actually I don't believe anyone is offended. It's just that getting riled up and waiting for responses to sensational posts is a lot more fun than participating in a boring, civil conversation.

mummiedearest

Wed, Dec 19 2012, 1:47 pm

squirrel wrote:

Chayalle wrote:

Why are you on this site if you feel that way?

squirrel, I didn't mean you should GIVE a shiur. just organize one. and I meant it in a friendly way. for me, this site is a social outlet. I can have conversations with other adults during the day. before I had kids, a shiur was my social outlet. I suggested it because if you are truly concerned about this site (and it is a valid concern for you, though I was upset by the way you expressed it), you can have a similar experience of your own just by getting together with like-minded women. a shiur can be as simple as reading the shmiras halashon book that has a halacha a day. you read a page and everyone discusses. it's a nice thing to do. you don't have to even find an "inspirational" speaker to give everyone chizzuk.

for future reference, you can post something called "psa: aylor" and remind everyone to ask their rabbis. I don't think anyone would start bashing you for that. in fact, you'd probably get some "hear, hears."

zaq

Wed, Dec 19 2012, 1:47 pm

costanza wrote:

Actually I don't believe anyone is offended. .

You believe wrong. I was deeply offended. Perhaps I'm the only one, but I am not nobody.

Shmerling

Wed, Dec 19 2012, 1:56 pm

mummiedearest wrote:

squirrel wrote:

zaq wrote:

squirrel wrote:

Also people seem to be offending those who are more stringent with halacha. .

why are you not concerned with the reverse happening, squirrel?

Why should she be concerned that someone might become more right-wing?

I think her mistake was that she should have posted this in the 'chareidi section'.

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