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squirrel

Wed, Dec 19 2012, 5:31 pm

ally wrote:

squirrel wrote:

I did not realize that there is a charedi section here but I think that 'chit chat' is perfectly suitable for my post. Also to further elaborate on my post (and again feel free to bash), women also seem to think its okay to label others with terms such as crazy, problematic ect.
For example, our rav is okay with us using birth control for several years but when someone posts that her dh is against birth control and is causing shalom bayis issues then calling her dh names is not going to improve her shalom bayis, by doing so you are just confirming that if she feels there is a problem with her dh then she is right because everyone else is saying so. I respect that women out there do things different than I do and there are many women who dont have an easy time doing them and give them lots of credit, so before bashing and name calling just think and be sensitive to others feelings.

If you have an issue in a thread, say so there. It is really obnoxious to start a thread to lecture the general audience of imamother posters. Especially when you have so few posts.

I have an issue with lots of threads so I found it more convenient to do it this way. Obnoxious? not more than your reply. Discrimination to those with few posts? Whats it got to do with how many posts one has, should I also say im offended?

mummiedearest

Wed, Dec 19 2012, 5:40 pm

squirrel wrote:

ally wrote:

squirrel wrote:

If you have an issue in a thread, say so there. It is really obnoxious to start a thread to lecture the general audience of imamother posters. Especially when you have so few posts.

it's not a question of discrimination. the more you post, the better we know you. it's easier to be lectured by someone you already have a connection with.

greenfire

Wed, Dec 19 2012, 5:48 pm

mummiedearest wrote:

it's not a question of discrimination. the more you post, the better we know you. it's easier to be lectured by someone you already have a connection with.

not really - an insult is always insulting Rolling Eyes

mummiedearest

Wed, Dec 19 2012, 5:51 pm

greenfire wrote:

mummiedearest wrote:

it's not a question of discrimination. the more you post, the better we know you. it's easier to be lectured by someone you already have a connection with.

not really - an insult is always insulting Rolling Eyes

true.

Clarissa

Wed, Dec 19 2012, 6:23 pm

The more people know each other, the more slack they cut each other. I have friends from here with whom I disagree on most issues, but we've grown to like each other. To show up without really knowing anyone and using such strong language, one is going to ruffle some feathers. Like all groups in society, there are rules and mores, even if they're unofficial.

zaq

Wed, Dec 19 2012, 6:29 pm

This site "brings down" a lot of good women and a lot of good men--more men than women, in point of fact. The more erudite posters often cite their sources, chapter and verse.

saw50st8

Wed, Dec 19 2012, 6:30 pm

Argh! My plan to get everyone down to my level has been foiled.

mummiedearest

Wed, Dec 19 2012, 6:34 pm

saw50st8 wrote:

Argh! My plan to get everyone down to my level has been foiled.

I believe the phrase is "curses! foiled again!"

chocolate moose

Wed, Dec 19 2012, 6:46 pm

One reason we don't have non-frum-yet women on this board is because we don't mekarev each other. I mean, this site is not set up for that and I remember discussing - maybe it was with Yael or another mod - how it might actually turn some women "on their journey" away.

Having said that, this thread reminds me of when we bought this apt, with 2 separate sinks and a dishwasher, and we began acting in a certain way, keeping certain things separate/pareve. etc. Then I started going to shiurim for dinim in the kitchen, and DH said something like, oh, now we're going to do less? Because certain things we did, we thought we had to. The din is actually much less strict.

So that's what I thought of, when I saw this thread's title. Sure, the din is one way, and your community may even do things that way. But if you have a hardship or a shaylah? You have to even know what is a question. I don't think that's so wrong.

But yeah, a lady - or anyone else - has got to be semi-learned to know what to ask.

zaq

Wed, Dec 19 2012, 7:25 pm

chocolate moose wrote:

Sure, the din is one way, and your community may even do things that way. But if you have a hardship or a shaylah? You have to even know what is a question. I don't think that's so wrong.

.

The "I got a heter for a condom" thread being only one case in point.

Fabulous

Wed, Dec 19 2012, 7:45 pm

@cm My father (after not having learned much for close to 40 years) has been going to a steady shiur for the last ten years and he is always amazed at the information he learns, especially in regards to shabbos and y't. Sometimes we are strict when halacha is much more lenient and sometimes it's the opposite. It's important to know what you have to do and what you feel like you should do.

squirrel

Wed, Dec 19 2012, 9:01 pm

okay it seems there are spinoffs on this topic already and its amazing to see how people will only hear what they want to hear (and even hear what has never been said). Everyone has been offended and noone seemed to think that bad advice has ever been given to them here so to you all continue enjoying this site.
And to those seeking halachic advice find yourselves a better rav than imamothers.

crl

Wed, Dec 19 2012, 9:34 pm

Ok, I rarely reply to such intense discussions, but squirrel, I think you are missing what people are taking offense to from your original post and that's what they are stuck on.

While I think we can all agree that giving yourself a "self-pasken" from the internet is not such a good idea, I think a lot of women here feel that your original post was implying that they are reading opinions/other people's piskei halacha and will apply them to themselves without seeking proper authority, which I think isn't fair -- you have to give everyone credit that no matter how they classify themselves, each person will seek out their own guidance and advice however they deem fit for their life situation.

You kind of gave off the vibe that by offering different life experiences, some women with different psaks were "corrupting" others. While oral relations may not be a popularly discussed and allowed thing in a more right wing environment, your post made it sound that it is ASSUR and anyone who does otherwise is not as "frum" as "good bais yaakov girls", which I believe many people take offense to because a) You're assuming all the examples you mentioned are completely assur, which is not the case -- while you may get a different psak, for others, they have legitimate JUST AS FRUM sources and psaks that say it's completely MUTTAR, so blanket statements never go over well, and b) you imply that "frum" = "Bais yaakov girls" and that only BY girls are stringent with halacha, and all of these other "more modern" opinions are "less frum", which I think is a bit closeminded -- just because someone holds differently than you, does NOT mean it's LESS strict, or LESS frum, which is how you came across and I can see why people got upset.

Yes, I agree with your premise that people shouldn't follow halacha solely based on what they see on imamother, but I think you phrased it in a less inclusive way.

And, I believe it was mentioned beforehand, but I'd like to reiterate that just because someone holds differently doesn't mean that the fact they got one psak over another is indicative of their level of frumkeit. If anything, I'd imagine is beneficial to see other people's experiences and mindsets and be able to respect that there is legitimate halachic reasoning to justify someone else's life experience to receive such a psak and to know that if the same situation arose for yourself, you can ask the right questions to your own rav to at least get a more informed answer, even if it's not the same as someone else's on here.

tsiggelle

Wed, Dec 19 2012, 9:52 pm

zaq wrote:

PSA to all members: please remember that this site is a discussion group comprised of women from the full range of Orthodoxy, ultra-charedi to ultra-liberal, and from communities with a wide diversity of customs and hashkafot. The purpose of this site is to exchange ideas; no one here is a posek, and every member's posts reflect her individual hashkafa and understanding of halacha which may or may not agree with yours. Some posted information may be incorrect, or not applicable to your community, or may clash outright with your community's hashkafah or practice. Therefore, exercise caution. Do not consider any post to be a psak halacha, bring your shailos to a rav, and evaluate expressed opinions with at least the same level of critical thinking you would use when having a face-to-face discussion with a relative stranger.

Excellent!

tsiggelle

Wed, Dec 19 2012, 9:53 pm

Simple1 wrote:

I think a good analogy would be to say that you shouldn't blindly take advice from random posters on a medical site's forums or message boards - ask your doctor, (taking advice from more formal sources such as articles on WebMd seems OK).

Also it would be helpful to know before taking medical advice if these are "homeopathic" types or "medical" types and take advice from sources that suit your lifestyle. Similarly you might want to keep in mind weather the advice giver is MO or more yeshivish, so you can take advice relevant to your lifestyle.

Excellent!

bamamama

Thu, Dec 20 2012, 2:18 am

squirrel wrote:

Speaking to people as though they are dumb or ignorant is always offensive. You felt the need to give a PSA but I think it's clear that all the women on here are sophisticated enough to sort the wheat from the chaff as their community sees it.

DrMom

Thu, Dec 20 2012, 2:44 am

The original post was offensive because it was basically a warning to the haredi/yeshivish posters (I.e. "good frum women") not to allow their ways to be "corrupted" by the advice of those with a more "modern" hashkafa (I.e., "bad not-frum women").

rachel91

Thu, Dec 20 2012, 4:37 am

I can somehow understand the op, when I first came to this site I kind of couldn't figure it out and some things seemed quite weird to me, now I understand that there are many different people with different backgrounds here. But to be honest a site like this can really have influence on some of your opinions, not only halachic things but other things as well, it's not that the other posters write something wrong, it's just that if you read so many different opinions each day your view on things could change as well.
I actually wanted to ask a question like this once ' did your views on certain things change since joining imamother' something like this Smile

baba

Thu, Dec 20 2012, 5:07 am

Shmerling wrote:

ally wrote:

Shmerling wrote:

mummiedearest wrote:

squirrel wrote:

zaq wrote:

squirrel wrote:

Also people seem to be offending those who are more stringent with halacha. .

But for this line, I'd have "liked" your post. People are equally guilty offending those who are less stringent, making it painfully clear that they consider "not frum" or "not really frum" or "can't trust their frumkeit" anyone who doesn't observe the stringencies that they do. And there a whole lot of ignorance out there about what is halacha lemoshe misinai and what is an optional stringency and what is not even a stringency but a particular group's social norm that has no relevance to any other group.

Zaq you are right and I wanted to include that in my post as well - not to degrade those who do what some dont do, and more frum should not degrade either but my point here was that there are some who hold differently and are coming here for some questionable opinions and going by that. I am not so concerned of the reverse happening iykwim.

why are you not concerned with the reverse happening, squirrel?

Why should she be concerned that someone might become more right-wing?

I think her mistake was that she should have posted this in the 'chareidi section'.

Some of us worry about the shift to the right just as much as you worry about the shift to the left.

Ok, but obviously a chareidi person is not worried about that. She was warning the chareidi posters to be careful. I guess you could start a thread warning the MO posters to be careful.

Well, especially as a woman, I think you should be. Halevai that more chareidi people would be.

chani8

Thu, Dec 20 2012, 5:30 am

I have no problem cutting OP some slack. She's just hit "culture shock" here. I think she's been put in her place for awhile. And she'll either learn to chill, or start to feel religiously guilty for being here and leave.

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