Adapting from sensitive culture to tough

amother

Thu, Dec 20 2012, 1:35 pm

How does a sensitive/aydel person/family you get used to a more abrasive/strong society like Israel without breaking? Is Israeli society not for every personality?

We want to make Aliyah but a (Israeli) Rabbi cautioned that it could very hard for us as we are gentle people. I'm not sure what aspect of Israel he is referring to, but is it very hard emotionally for Americans to make Aliyah?

Tablepoetry

Thu, Dec 20 2012, 2:43 pm

I don't consider americans or american culture as particularly gentle, so I may not be the best person to answer this question.
Israelis in general are more direct. I don't think this means they're less sensitive. They are just more open and straightforward about certain things. For example, someone can tell you that you really should go back on your diet, you looked much better last year. Or someone can ask you how much you paid for your house or car (and they'll be rather shocked if you prefer not to answer).

Israelis are also not formal in general. The dress is informal, as are the manners. But that really has nothing to do with 'gentle'.

Isramom8

Thu, Dec 20 2012, 2:47 pm

amother wrote:

Isramom8 wrote:

Can you give some examples of how you are gentle?

I don't think we're particuarly "extra gentle". Like most people, we feel others pain personally. We're polite, formal at times...not sure exactly what the Rabbi meant.

what about the Israeli culture is hard to adjust to?

I don't know, I think I was always an Israeli waiting to happen. I love Israelis. They make me laugh. If you can laugh at the things Tablepoetry mentioned, you're good to go.

You need to not get freaked out by everything. A siren - take the steps everyone is taught to take. A harsh comment - don't take it personally but listen to the message in it. Heated politics - it'll pass, and it'll return again too.

shalhevet

Thu, Dec 20 2012, 2:52 pm

I think this idea of Israelis not being gentle is not so true in frum society - people are kind and polite and do chessed with others, and in this country everyone feels the pain when something happens to anyone. And it is not going to effect you managing to be cordial to your neighbours.

I would say there are two major differences:
1. There is a different culture regarding polite words. People will give the shirt off their back to save another Jew, but they won't say please and thank you (although, of course, this is just a generalization). They don't politely offer to help you if you walk into their shop. They don't say 'have a nice day' when it doesn't interest them in the least. If you understand that it is just a different culture, and not people being rude, it will help. Among frum people I would say politeness is more prevalent.

2. There is a different culture regarding officials, store workers etc. If you ask for something gently you often won't get it. You frequently have to be firm and tough and insist on things. You certainly don't have to be rude. This is the problem many immigrants have - that they find it tough to demand something they are entitled to, and so get walked over. This just requires practice and getting used to, just like any other differences in culture.

IMHO the biggest obstacle to aliyah by Americans (in particular) is thinking their culture is superior instead of just different.

chani8

Thu, Dec 20 2012, 3:03 pm

This generalization of Israelis is not true, imo.

Israeli culture?? Israeli culture is made up of you and me and shlomo and achmud and Boris, etc, etc. We all count as Israeli culture.

The hardest thing for me has been the language. If you are not good with language, then it will be hard, but it's doable. I know because after 14 years here, I'm still at kita alef level hebrew, but I manage in a non-anglo community even.

Last edited by chani8 on Thu, Jan 31 2013, 3:30 pm; edited 1 time in total

vicki

Thu, Dec 20 2012, 3:38 pm

shalhevet wrote:

2. There is a different culture regarding officials, store workers etc. If you ask for something gently you often won't get it. You frequently have to be firm and tough and insist on things. You certainly don't have to be rude. This is the problem many immigrants have - that they find it tough to demand something they are entitled to, and so get walked over. This just requires practice and getting used to, just like any other differences in culture.

This is what I've mostly found. I have to be firm on not allowing people to cut me (and therefore everyone behind me) in supermarket lines. I had to insist on them triple checking three of my children in school after being told "they are not on our list" because I knew they had been on that "list" for the last eight months. And this is with three separate schools.
But if you politely stand your ground things almost always work out in the end. Please don't let that stop you from making aliya.
I have found our new Israeli friends and neighbors to be kind, helpful, encouraging and funny. (not to say that our new Anglo friends are not)

Shuly

Thu, Dec 20 2012, 3:57 pm

In my opinion, Israelis got the name for being rude because they treat everyone like family. Since we're all Jews, you're my sister and I can treat you like my sister. Therefore, although I have never met you before, I will:

1) Tell you that you didn't dress your baby appropriately for the weather (either she needs a hat or socks or she's too hot or cold)
2) Ask you what your salary is and how much you pay in rent
3) Take your spot on line - you obviously understand why I need it so badly, so you're more than willing to let me go first.
4) Not say please and thank you in every sentence (Although I have to say that I have been seeing a big change in this area. Israeli customer service has definitely improved in the 8 years I've been here.)

On the other hand, because you are my sister, I will go out of my way, inconvenience myself and spend my entire day helping you out when you need it.

As much as we may bicker or give our unwanted opinions, in the end I love and care for you. Because you're my sister.

Fox

Thu, Dec 20 2012, 6:17 pm

vicki wrote:

shalhevet wrote:

I think that this can be a much bigger impediment than people who've made aliyah successfully may realize. DH and I considered it many years ago, but we realized that we would simply find daily life too unpleasant and demoralizing. I also have friends who have lived in Israel but ultimately returned because of this factor.

It's not a better/worse issue, but you have to know what you can put up with.

amother

Thu, Dec 20 2012, 8:24 pm

I can really empathize with OP bec. I grapple with this issue also. We were in Israel for a pilot trip a few years ago, at the Tachana Merkazit on a Friday morning and trying to get on a bus to another city. Anyone who politely waited their turn to get on the bus simply didn't get on! So I did what everyone else did-pushed my way on. And felt horrible about it. And wondered why my aidelkeit is worse in Israel than America. Then we went to the kotel. And waited on line to use the bathroom. When I got to the front of the line, some elementary age girls ran right in front of me and tried to catch the next available bathroom. With gritted teeth, I strongly chastised them that there was a line and I was next. I don't like having to do things like this. My husband was taken advantage of by 3 different taxi drivers. What was his sin? He was an American and an easy target. As much as I want to make aliyah (and very possibly might do it) I find it very disturbing that you have to be much tougher to make it there.

Tamiri

Thu, Jan 31 2013, 2:20 pm

אם תרצו אין זו אגדה
Op, if you want it enough you will make it happen.
True story: I know a wonderful woman who also happens to be an MD. She didn't work in her field as she was busy with her family. Also, she was the quietest, gentlest most unassuming person you could ever meet. She didn't open her mouth unless she had to. She never argued or made a ruckus. Scout's honor: the most aidel person you could know.
And then her husband dropped the bomb: we're moving to Israel. She did not have much of a background, certainly wasn't an ardent Aliya supporter, nothing. And then her husband's news. We had NO IDEA how he could do that to her. How he could move her from her placid, peaceful life to the hullaballoo that is Israel. How would she EVER make her wishes and desires made known (she knew no Hebrew) and how would she ever get anything done. Who would stick up for her rights?
Well, let me tell you. This lady who was dedicated to her husband and family did it. She made Aliya. From her lovely home in a wonderful town in the U.S., to another nice town in Israel. Nice, but not what she was used to. I visted her - and there was NO A/C on in the dead of summer... I guess they had to cut down on bills at the time. She went back to her profession (I don't want to expound but let's just say she needed to be talking to her patients, a LOT) and got a job and....LOVES her life here. If you would have asked anyone for ONE person who should never make Aliya, they would have name her. Yet, SHE MADE IT! And, OP, so shall you.
I think it's very condescending for a Rabbi or anyone else to choose what you will be able to handle. You've already decided on Aliya, which means it will most likely work. Don't worry! The CULTURE here is different than the U.S. but that doesn't mean it BAD. It's what enables people to see the beauty in what's around them, rather than the hardships. I am always amazed at the way some Amothers portray Israel. It seems SO off the mark. Rude Israelis? As Isramom8 says: just laugh! Pushy? Get sharp elbows. Talk to people here. Use your friends' experience. We all do it and we're getting along just fine BH. So shall you.

amother

Thu, Jan 31 2013, 3:11 pm

I do find that this culture is much tougher and find it hard because of that.

Here is an example about the differences in culture. If my child falls down and hurts
themselves, then run to me, cry and I give them a hug until they feel better. Here,
I have often seen Israeli kids fall down and their mothers scream/say stop crying, nothing happened..

Because of the way that I have brought up my kids, some of them have a hard time in school - even though they were all born here.
I have had the school tell me that my daughter is too sensitive because when a teacher yelled at her and threatened to send her to the principal for something that she didn't do, she got upset..
& BTW, I got upset when the school told me that my child was too sensitive Smile

Sometimes I wish that I could be like the Israelis have people yell and scream at me, say not nice things and not have me care..

I really do find it hard because of this - yet, I still can't see myself moving back. But it is hard..

Tamiri

Thu, Jan 31 2013, 3:59 pm

But, you may have had it difficult in the U.S. as well.... did you ever think of that?
I got my initiation to Israel in a really rough neighborhood. I survived. Then, we moved to a more decent town and I can't remember it being any different than what I experienced in the U.S.
My kids have had some rough times. But who is to say that in the U.S. that wouldn't have happened too? Or something equally distressing?
We aren't made of soft stuff, and we can toughen ourselves to face new cultures. We just have to decide to do it.

amother

Thu, Jan 31 2013, 4:09 pm

I am the one who posted before about finding in tough here..
I response to Tamiri, I have to say that I did grow up in the US (OK Canada, so maybe that is the difference) and I didn't find it hard - I do see a difference and that is in comparison to how I grew up.

Another difference here that I learned the hard way is that you have to teach your kids to fight back or they get taken advantage of. I have even heard that rabbanim say that. It was always against my better judgment to tell my kids to hit back - until one day I got so fed up that I just told my kid - just hit him back. To which my child responded "I won't do an aveira and hit" ...

luvinlife

Thu, Jan 31 2013, 4:17 pm

Op it is harder to live her and the society is pretty tough but it all takes getting use to. The first few years I use to come home crying from the store or the bus when I got shouted at but then I just got use to it and don't take it so to heart anymore. I also learnt to be tougher when needed..stick up for myself..not be pushed around or gyped in line. I stick up for myself and shout back if I need to. it all takes getting use to. but one thing I learnt is that israelis really care and would be there for you. in the US it seems customer service is great but they are all fake and would not save you when your thrown on a train track. let us know if ur moving!!

amother

Thu, Jan 31 2013, 11:14 pm

OP here. thank you all for your comments and stories. Aliyah is still on the table. I figured that I'll just have to get used to the culture when I get there.
We're not going with much money, so I was expecting it to be tough anyway. But I'm good at making do.

So now, all I have to do is convince my dh to decide to take the plunge!

One more thing, is giving birth there very different than in American hospitals? I've heard some stories... Confused