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Motek




 
 
 


Post  Sat, Jan 27 2007, 10:24 pm
don't think it's about laziness either

did anybody mention laziness? Confused
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chocolate moose




 
 
 


Post  Sat, Jan 27 2007, 10:34 pm
I mentioned laziness.....I think some of it is, yes.
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greenfire




 
 
 


Post  Sat, Jan 27 2007, 10:46 pm
This goes back to the chumras being too hard for some people and can actually push some away -
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Imaonwheels




 
 
 


Post  Sun, Jan 28 2007, 6:59 am
I think the art of teaching yiras shamayim is largely a lost art due to "educational advances". Do we talk to our kids as if HaShem is real, here and relevant. Do we have awareness of Him ourselves? Do we trust Him completely or make cheshbonos for our selves.

It is very fashionable in Israel right now to have frum self awareness classes. All kinds of seminars to make us more aware of ourselves. A rav I learned with taught a class called (by the mosad, to attract students) Jewish Self Awareness. On the very 1st day he promised us that we were acutely aware of ourselves and his course would try to teach us to be aware of Him. And we are a little older than most of our children. There are practical consequences to not being auto pilot Jews. If parents and/or teachers are such, the naturally honest children will not respect it no matter how good a faker you are.

A 5 yr old should already have a relationship to HaShem. I always told my kids if they wanted something that I don't know if I can provide it but they should speak to HaShem. When they wanted a new Abba I would tell them that I am talking to HaShem about it. When something didn't work out then I thought but HaShem knows better.
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gryp




 
 
 


Post  Sun, Jan 28 2007, 10:08 am
Quote:
I think the art of teaching yiras shamayim is largely a lost art due to "educational advances". Do we talk to our kids as if HaShem is real, here and relevant. Do we have awareness of Him ourselves? Do we trust Him completely or make cheshbonos for ourselves.

Thumbs Up

Quote:
A 5 yr old should already have a relationship to HaShem. I always told my kids if they wanted something that I don't know if I can provide it but they should speak to HaShem.

yeah, as I said, I tell my 3 year old to ask Hashem for an ice cream cone, because I'm not buying one for him every time he asks!

when my 3 year old started school this year the first thing I wanted to know about his new Morah-to-be is whether she dresses completely tzniusly. how is her Chassidishkeit? does she have a live relationship with Hashem and the Rebbe or is it more of a ho-hum kind of thing? Then I wanted to make sure she was a nice person- is she fair in the classroom? if another boy takes away a toy from my son, how will she handle the situation? does she have a good feel for the kids and aware of their needs? does she speak to them nicely?
BH, he has 3 teachers in the classroom that all fit my criteria plus MUCH more, but if any of them had been lacking I would not have put him in that classroom to spend the year.
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shanie5




 
 
 


Post  Sun, Jan 28 2007, 12:51 pm
if its the parents, why would just one kid go off the derech?

if teachers, then why only one or two from a class and not the whole class?

its alot of things involved and its rare that one person/situation can be blamed.

I think alot has to do with "CHANOCH LANA'AR AL PI DARCO" each child is different and should be answered/treated according to their needs and personalities.

some kids thrive on higher education in the schools, others are lost in it.
as teachers and parents, we should accept a child who is happy with a 70 average w/o badgering her/him to do better and better. they probably have other things they do better with and will survive well w/o a 98% average.

and if a child has a question about anything they should be answered to the best of your knowledge. too many times the answer has been "that is not an appropriate question" and that leaves a child foundering and falling.

if we cannot answer the question, ask around, find s/o who can-teacher, rav, counselor-anybody that can help and give guidance.
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Imaonwheels




 
 
 


Post  Sun, Jan 28 2007, 8:42 pm
We don't always have choice. A shame for the acadamization of teaching now the born teacher who just needed some knowledge and experience looks the same on paper as the robot who has no feel. A shame people think that completing courses and having a piece of paper makes one automatically qualified. If my 3 yr old did not have an experienced melamed trained by an excellent melamed I would keep him home. I have done it.

As to home vs. school, there is no one thing at fault. Remember our religion teaches us that our nisyanos are something we can handle. After BM a child certainly has the free will to overcome whatever he experiences. It is his nisayon by hashgacha pratis and he is the one ultimately responsible.

A friend of mine teaching a course said something interesting. One sees as the problem what is their prob. If one thinks he is being taught chumros and does not have emuna in those teaching then he will see the teaching of chumras as the prob. If another thinks that no subject should ever be forbidden or has authority issues then those things will be to blame.

My experience is that giving the school any less than total respect or mixing politics in the school are the 2 worse culprits. Children tend to do much better in black and white as opposed to grey when younger.
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greenfire




 
 
 


Post  Sun, Jan 28 2007, 9:16 pm
shanie5 wrote:
if its the parents, why would just one kid go off the derech?

if teachers, then why only one or two from a class and not the whole class?

its alot of things involved and its rare that one person/situation can be blamed.

I think alot has to do with "CHANOCH LANA'AR AL PI DARCO" each child is different and should be answered/treated according to their needs and personalities.

some kids thrive on higher education in the schools, others are lost in it.
as teachers and parents, we should accept a child who is happy with a 70 average w/o badgering her/him to do better and better. they probably have other things they do better with and will survive well w/o a 98% average.

and if a child has a question about anything they should be answered to the best of your knowledge. too many times the answer has been "that is not an appropriate question" and that leaves a child foundering and falling.

if we cannot answer the question, ask around, find s/o who can-teacher, rav, counselor-anybody that can help and give guidance.


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gryp




 
 
 


Post  Mon, Jan 29 2007, 9:36 am
Quote:
A friend of mine teaching a course said something interesting. One sees as the problem what is their prob. If one thinks he is being taught chumros and does not have emuna in those teaching then he will see the teaching of chumras as the prob. If another thinks that no subject should ever be forbidden or has authority issues then those things will be to blame.

you think that's true? I dont know.
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Imaonwheels




 
 
 


Post  Thu, Feb 08 2007, 9:29 am
I am pretty sure it is. My experience has been that. I am on forums were people have issues so serious they were banned from frum forums. They blame closemindedness because THEY were banned. They forget that they had the issues and that is why they were banned (not that I condone banning a Jew who is confused) I speak to many who say me/my sibling/kid went off because the rules were too machmir. They learn from the one and not from the 29 who had a good or not bad experience in the same school or class.

I believe that there is almost no outside factor that will always cause kids to go off. I see these externals used for excuses because kids also have a yetzer hara. Another kid will look and say, "Thats not right, I'll try to be better" another will say, "If thats an example of a religious person who needs it".

The first is more difficult. It takes inner strength, independent thinking and maturity, 3 midos that are not popular to teach to kids today.
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DefyGravity




 
 
 


Post  Thu, Feb 08 2007, 9:37 am
suomynona wrote:
chocolate moose wrote:
how can they really doubt HaShem etc.,

Most people don't go off the derech because they have doubts. They do it because they don't want to be frum for whatever reason.


And why don't they want to be frum anymore? B/c they have doubts. If you don't believe in something, why would you practice a Jewish lifestyle? Most people go off the derech because they don't believe in G-d, or they don't believe in the Torah.
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Imaonwheels




 
 
 


Post  Thu, Feb 08 2007, 9:47 am
Or they believe in Him but their yetzer hara is stronger than their belief. I believe that far too little is done to bring younger children to the level of yiras shamayim and kabbalas ol necessary to stand as frum teenagers w/what is out there. There is a general lack of awareness by many parents that yiras shamayim can't exist w/o kabbalas ol.
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shalhevet




 
 
 


Post  Thu, Feb 08 2007, 9:52 am
DefyGravity wrote:
suomynona wrote:
chocolate moose wrote:
how can they really doubt HaShem etc.,

Most people don't go off the derech because they have doubts. They do it because they don't want to be frum for whatever reason.


And why don't they want to be frum anymore? B/c they have doubts. If you don't believe in something, why would you practice a Jewish lifestyle? Most people go off the derech because they don't believe in G-d, or they don't believe in the Torah.


Chazal themselves said that the Jewish people only worshipped idols in order to justify forbidden relationships.

I strongly disagree, Defy. I think very few people go off the derech because they have really looked into Torah and don't believe. They go off the derech b/c the outside world (for all kinds of reasons) is more tempting. If they say it is b/c they don't believe that is just an excuse.
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Tzippy




 
 
 


Post  Tue, Jul 24 2007, 10:37 am
I would like to add that this discussion is not taking into consideration that a child's peers have greater influence in the adolescent age than parents or teachers, books, tapes, etc... Having taught in yeshivot for twenty years, I can tell you that some of the kids who went off the derech were from the most refined caring homes, and were in the best yeshivot, with amazing caring teachers.
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Ruchel




 
 
 


Post  Tue, Jul 24 2007, 11:42 am
Tzippy wrote:
I would like to add that this discussion is not taking into consideration that a child's peers have greater influence in the adolescent age than parents or teachers, books, tapes, etc... Having taught in yeshivot for twenty years, I can tell you that some of the kids who went off the derech were from the most refined caring homes, and were in the best yeshivot, with amazing caring teachers.


This is true, but a big problem. I can definitely see it happening if the child is in a far away yeshiva and only home for week ends or worse, vacations!
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chavamom




 
 
 


Post  Tue, Jul 24 2007, 12:28 pm
How about kids who experience first-hand true blue hypocrisy (or worse, cruelty) in the frum world, esp. from those that others venerate and decide "if that's frumkeit and those are 'gadolim' I want nothing of it?"
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gryp




 
 
 


Post  Tue, Jul 24 2007, 12:40 pm
yikes, chavamom. Confused
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Ruchel




 
 
 


Post  Tue, Jul 24 2007, 12:46 pm
chavamom wrote:
How about kids who experience first-hand true blue hypocrisy (or worse, cruelty) in the frum world, esp. from those that others venerate and decide "if that's frumkeit and those are 'gadolim' I want nothing of it?"


yup Crying

But maybe a very secure home and parental explanations about hypocrisy can lessen the bad feelings.
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greenfire




 
 
 


Post  Tue, Jul 24 2007, 1:22 pm
chavamom wrote:
How about kids who experience first-hand true blue hypocrisy (or worse, cruelty) in the frum world, esp. from those that others venerate and decide "if that's frumkeit and those are 'gadolim' I want nothing of it?"


indeed - I have seen such toxins to the soul ..
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Ruchel




 
 
 


Post  Tue, Jul 24 2007, 1:26 pm
greenfire wrote:
chavamom wrote:
How about kids who experience first-hand true blue hypocrisy (or worse, cruelty) in the frum world, esp. from those that others venerate and decide "if that's frumkeit and those are 'gadolim' I want nothing of it?"


indeed - I have seen such toxins to the soul ..


Me too. I didn't even go to Jewish school, but to jewish activities out of school. It was enough for me to sometimes come home disgusted and horrified and my parents had to remotivate me by telling me not to judge the religion by the way people did it.
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