Not In Love with Israel

Karnash

Wed, Jan 30 2013, 4:16 pm

I don't know, I must be living in the same "bubble" that Ora's in. I don't know anyone who's making 4,000-5,000 shekel. I know few people who are making less than 7-9000. Most people I know are making well over 10,000 - and most don't have PhDs. I'm not talking about those in their 40's and 50's who have had the time to build a career, but about my kids and neices and nephews and their friends. I know people with MAs who work in Teva and Taasia Avirit doing important interesting work and are making good salaries. My daughter actually does have a PhD in physics and she feels she would be doing just as well with an MA. A lot comes down to ambition and ability.

MountainRose

Wed, Jan 30 2013, 5:29 pm

A fair number of you of you have said that it's ok not to live in Israel as long as you feel the lack - feel like there's something missing. I feel the lack of all sorts of mitzvahs I can't do - karbonos, shmita, anything having to do with the Beis Hamikdash - but I don't really focus on that lack. I don't live in a world where I can do them. The most I can do is try to to change the world by being a better person so Mashiach comes and then I can do them.

When I was a little girl, hearing about E'Y (didn't visit because my family couldn't afford it) I pictured this perfect land with wooded hills and shady glens, rivers and mountains and a lush greenery. As I grew up I realized that I had been picturing a climate much more likely in New England or Northern Europe, but I didn't realize how very different Israel was from that until I went on Birthright. They had us hiking in the Galil (I got so many blisters) and climbing Masada (I got heat exhaustion from the easy path) and swimming in Ein Gedi (not what I pictured as all - apparently an oasis isn't green at all, just more desert with a few palm trees and a waterfall). Less than halfway through I had a little meltdown, asking the tour leaders when we'd stop all the nature stuff and experience E'Y - Tzfat, Jerusalem, Kvarim, etc. I was told by our fourth generation madricha, rather angrily, that I hadn't come to E'Y, I'd come to Israel, and that I shouldn't confuse the two.

Unlike the E'Y of my girlish dreams, in Israel you have to pay for cool air, elbow your way up to a spot at the Kotel, and catch a ride in an armored bus to get to the kvarim.

I definitely feel the lack of the land I thought E'Y was, but I have not found a way to miss what the State of Israel is. I can only hope that when Mashiach comes, the land that Hashem promised us will somehow resemble what I heard about in my childhood.

In your opinion, does that fulfill the spiritual requirement of 'Ahavas Haeretz'?

ChossidMom

Thu, Jan 31 2013, 3:01 am

freidasima wrote:

True in the big things - spirituality, etc. there is nothing like EY. But there is daily life. Everything almost without exception is more expensive here other than health care for those without insurance in the USA and yeshiva tuition/private university tuition. Other than that? Nothing is cheaper and salaries are often a fraction of what American salaries are.

So let's not kid ourselves. It is HARD to live here, what Tamiri calls "luxury" is just everyday lower middle class life in America. Upper middle class americans? It's a way of life you only find here among the rich. And rich american Jewish life? You have maybe two dozen people like that in this country. So why are we here? Not because it is financially better, only because it is EY and it is a mitzva to live here. You can do better in the States in almost all professions than here, housing is cheaper by and large, food is cheaper, utilities and taxes are much less, health care if you have insurance is cheaper, and daily life is a heck of a lot easier not to speak of not being fraught with fear of bombing, being on the brink of war, shelling, losing life in army service and reserves etc.

But this is EY and it's a mitzva to live here. It's not for everyone, and it can be really hard if you know what a different life is. But to say that someone "hates" the idea of living here? I don't think the word "hate" is in place, I think that it just scares them very very much. And I can't blame such people. It's not for everyone.

I just wanted to add that my dad a"h who was such a lover of the Land of Israel used to say "Not everyone has the zchus to live here in Israel".

(He also didn't like the idea of bringing people over in coffins to be buried here. He always quoted "Vehavianu KOMMEMIYUT le'artzeinu" (May we be brought here upright) LOL

I think he was so right.

DrMom

Thu, Jan 31 2013, 3:29 am

MountainRose wrote:

I think this is ridiculous.

First of all, a picky comment: You can certainly fulfil mitzvot pertaining to shmita in E"Y. You don't need a Beit HaMikdash for that.

Secondly: You grew up thinking the climate in E"Y is like New England (you didn't know there was a desert here at all? seriously?) and it's really not, and you got blisters on a hike you took on a free trip to E"Y (didn't you check out the itinerary before you signed up your particular Birthright tour?) and because of this, you reject the very notion on living in E"Y? Do you realize how silly and whiney and spoiled that sounds?

I don't know what kind of storybook tales you were told as a child, or if any place could live up to that. E"Y is a real place. We have weather. Hiking here can give you blisters (hiking in the UK can give you blisters too!). You don't have to hike up Masada to live in E"Y. It's not like you need to schlepp up Masada every day in order to buy your groceries or go to shul. Gosh I am sorry that the oasis in Ein Gedi was too small for you. I hardly think that was the point of the trip there... but if you want to swim, there are many municipal pools. And the Mediterranean Sea.

If you want to visit the Kotel or Tzvat or whatever you can. If you don't like hiking, you don't have to. I don't care much for tea and crumpets, but I still managed to have a nice visit to London.

shalhevet

Thu, Jan 31 2013, 3:34 am

MountainRose wrote:

I don't really know how to respond to this, so a few random thoughts:
1. I never did any of those three things (pay for cool air, elbow your way up to a spot at the Kotel, and catch a ride in an armored bus to get to the kvarim).
2. You sound like someone who doesn't like nature hikes - what has that got to do with Israel? I bet you don't like roughing it in the Lake District either.
3. Your post is totally about gashmius - I think we are speaking two completely different languages.
4. Why do you want mashiach to come? (I am asking completely seriously, this isn't tongue in cheek). What is lacking in your life that makes you want
והיה ביום ההוא יתקע בשופר גדול ובאו... והשתחוו לד' בהר הקודש בירושלים
ביום ההוא יהיה ד'אחד ושמו אחד

amother

Thu, Jan 31 2013, 3:42 am

I live in the heart of Rechavia and pay $1650 for a 4 bedroom place. My brother was renting a 2 bedroom in Queens for more and another brother was paying that for a 2 bedroom in Washington Heights (and this was a bunch of years ago). Compare apples to apples. Apartments in wealthy parts of Jerusalem or tel aviv are cheaper than manhattan and Brooklyn, which is what you have to compare them to.

I always say to DH there is no way would afford to live in the states. I registered my dd for 1st grade the other day. Cost free. (Beis yaakov). Registered my 3 and 4 yr old for gan for next year. Cost free. I pay my babysitter 12 shekel an hour.

My health insurance costs (with all of our additional private insurance) about 500 shekel a month and there are no copays. Prescriptions are 13 shekel. Compared to $50 or more I paid in the states.

We bring in very decent salaries for Israel. Net about 15,000/month.

Yes some things are more expensive and we do bring things in from the states when people come. But big things are so much cheaper. I don't know how people in America make it work.

FYI, we have Carter's here. They sell in H&O in all the malls. Right now they are having a sale. Buy 1 get the second 70% off.

shabbatiscoming

Thu, Jan 31 2013, 3:51 am

MountainRose wrote:

So interesting. And I, as a little girl was told that Israel started out as swamp land (in a lot of the country) and that people had to literally stand in the muck for hours on end draining it, getting sick from teh mosquito bites and that there were many conditions of living that were not ideal. BUT, these people were building the country (I am not talking about the STATE of israel right now). Then I learned that Israel is also young, in terms of modern days. Israel (now I am talking about the state) is much much younger than England or the USA, much much younger. You still have to give it time. AND you have to get out of your dream bubble and realize that it is a very real place.

And what does it even mean having to pay for cool air? As in air conditioning? And as for the armored buses to kvarim, whats the big deal? Also, if you know about birthright, they are not kvarim hopping organization. It is more "lets see the land of israel".
Blisters from a hike? really? that cant happen anywhere else, only israel, right?
heat exhaustion from the climb up masada? you must have not drank enough water.

etky

Thu, Jan 31 2013, 3:58 am

MountainRose wrote:

I think OP still has a lot of growing up to do and that is the essence of this thread and the one that precipitated it.

lst

Thu, Jan 31 2013, 4:13 am

maybe I'm naive, but I am shocked by the feeling and ideas that some posters have, on this thread and the other recent, similar threads.
I honestly can't believe that Jewish people feel this way. Everyone I know in chul so wishes they could be here, and would do anything to come right now. And beH they will all get here one day (Im hoping soon!). I am seriously shocked that people not only feel otherwise, but can go on to say that they'd purposely avoid Israel!!
What a privilege I have, to be able to live in Eretz Yisrael. Yes I miss my family tremendously, and of course I miss other things, but I get to live in Eretz Yisrael.
I don't get to visit the kotel as often as I'd like, I don't even get to Yerushalayim as often as I'd like, but its a half hour drive away.
I can go on listing all the things I love about living here, and I can also list the things I don't like about living here. Is any place perfect? Arguments aside, about what cost more here or there, what's available, etc...
Out of all the imperfect places in the world to live in, I get to live here, in a spiritually perfect ERETZ Yisrael, and you are all invited with open, welcoming arms.

MountainRose

Thu, Jan 31 2013, 4:20 am

DrMom wrote:

Secondly: You grew up thinking the climate in E"Y is like New England (you didn't know there was a desert here at all? seriously?) and it's really not, and you got blisters on a hike you took on a free trip to E"Y (didn't you check out the itinerary before you signed up your particular Birthright tour?) and because of this, you reject the very notion on living in E"Y? Do you realize how silly and whiney and spoiled that sounds?

About the climate in Israel, I was a kid and I thought when the Jews left the Midbar, they left the desert. I never researched it. My schools were more focused on the text on the Navi than describing the lay of the land. I never had a reason to challenge the subconscious impressions I got as a kid until I actually got to Israel.

Also, I didn't reject the idea of living in Israel based on my Brithright experience. I actually moved to Israel a few months after Birthright because I was aware how skewed my experience had been. What I was trying to illustrate with my story is the profound difference between the E'Y I have been raised to love and what it is like in that location now, millenia later. The very land has changed (archaeological evidence shows it used to be more fertile), and it is not what I was raised on. I will gladly visit, but it is not the place of the mitzvahs I was raised on.

Quote:

4. Why do you want mashiach to come? (I am asking completely seriously, this isn't tongue in cheek). What is lacking in your life that makes you want

Shalhevet, you raise an interesting question. Sorry to keep referring to my childhood, but that's when I was educated. When I was 11, I didn't want moshiach because I didn't want to leave my hometown and there were so many technological developments I didn't want to lose (I hope you won't call me overly materialistic for being attached to running water). I was convinced that when Machiach came 1) The lives of Jews would revert in every aspect to 2000 years ago and that 2) All the Jews in the world would have to move to one tiny country far away from my non-Jewish family members.

My teachers convinced me of two things:

1) We would not lose technological developments when Mashiach came - we could drive to the B'H instead of riding donkeys.

2) In a sense, the borders of E'Y would expand exponentially when Mashiach came. Heaven knows they varied enough during the times of the Tanach. My teachers said that not all Jews would have to live between the Yarden, Yam Hagadol, Kineret and Yam Hamelach. Just like Reuven, Gad, and Chatzi Menasheh lived over the Yarden, in the times of Mashiach it would be possible for Jews to live across the Atlantic and still get to Yerushalayim for the shalosh regalim. One even mentioned Arei Miklat being set up across the Eastern Seaboard.

Please don't call me immature for the views expressed above - I realize that they are the views of a child, but as there are shivim panim l'torah, I have chosen to embrace this interpretation as a vision of the times of Mashiach that I can daven for. You may call it childish, but especially after my negative experiences of Israel in my early 20's, I had to cling to what I had.

On the other hand, Hashem may create a lovely climate change, ahvas yisroel, and opening the borders to non-Jewish friends and family of Jews in times of Mashiach - all of which would remove my objections to living there. It is supposed to be a time of miracles after all.

freidasima

Thu, Jan 31 2013, 4:31 am

Quick answers -

Karnash you are indeed living in a bubble. I know lots of people making between 5,000 to 7,000 gross salary unfortunately, including people with higher degrees. Lots of them are secretaries, personal assistants, salespeople, quality control etc. Most work at government or semi government jobs, educational institutions, medical institutions etc. which make up more than 40% of the country's employment!

Amother with the dreams of what you thought EY should be - "chaloimes" as my grandmother used to say. Get real. If you don't like it, don't come, don't even come to visit. But maybe get your fantasies in line with reality.

Chossidmom - I love what you wrote about your dad. Mine would quote the same thing "komemiyut leartzeinu"...for the same reason. And he had the zechus of living here for almost 20 years before he was niftar and he loved the country although he certainly was not a "political zionist" as one could call them.

Shal - I'm with you. some people think that moshiach means that EY will turn into southern florida or something.

Shabbat - I was also taught as a kid that it was half dessert and half swamp. But as for the armored buses, don't kid yourself, it IS a big deal and it's awful that it has to be that way...so go to other kvorim like Rambam, R. Meir Baal Hanes etc. that one doesn't need an armored tank to get in. Enough kvorim to go around.

Amother from Revhavia - one of the problem with dealing with people from abroad is some of the things that you write which, in practice, isn't really precise. For example, there ARE the equivalent of co payments for a lot of things here. Every x ray, ultrasound, etc. that you have in a rivon one has to pay for. There are TONS of drugs whose price is not 13 shekel but can go up to 300 a month, my husband takes drugs like that and we pay over 1000 shekel a month out of pocket and this is with the kupat cholim subsidy, just for his meds.

Almost everything is more expensive here and not everyone can import everything from abroad - vitamins can break your bank. Supplements are the same. housing is tremendously expensive in comparison with income, you can't say "I am paying $1500 and my brother is paying more for less in NY". Is your brother earning an Israeli salary? The average tax level in EY is much higher than abroad as well. When people hear of someone earning a gross salary of NIS 30,000 - which is one heck of a high salary here - they don't realize that the take home from that is - with deductions of 10 bituach leumi and bituach briut, and then income tax - often only 60% of the gross salary. In the USA are you telling me that someone with a gross annual salary of $95,000 is only going to bring home $57,000? Who are we kidding!

The only things which are cheaper here per se are yeshiva tuition if one has a big family and no breaks in the USA, and health care compared to people with no insurance or really minimal insurance in the USA. Everything else is more expensive in proportion to average income. So no one lives here for the finances except people with 9 kids who can't afford yeshiva tuition and get all sorts of other benefits here.

We live here for the spiritual aspect, we live here because it is a mitzva. Period. No arguing with that one...