Not In Love with Israel

shabbatiscoming

Thu, Jan 31 2013, 4:39 am

freidasima wrote:

Almost everything is more expensive here and not everyone can import everything from abroad -
and health care compared to people with no insurance or really minimal insurance in the USA. Everything else is more expensive in proportion to average income. So no one lives here for the finances except people with 9 kids who can't afford yeshiva tuition and get all sorts of other benefits here.

I just wanted to concur with this. I have had to do countless IF cycles and BH we are here in Israel because I have heard how much this stuff costs out of Israel and I dont think that I would have been able to do what I needed (and still need) to do. IF drugs (and IVF generally - unless you go private) is soooooo much cheaper than anywhere else that I have seen.
I actually know people who have come to Israel to do IF cycling because of this Smile

shalhevet

Thu, Jan 31 2013, 4:45 am

MountainRose wrote:

Quote:

4. Why do you want mashiach to come? (I am asking completely seriously, this isn't tongue in cheek). What is lacking in your life that makes you want

Shalhevet, you raise an interesting question. Sorry to keep referring to my childhood, but that's when I was educated. When I was 11, I didn't want moshiach because I didn't want to leave my hometown and there were so many technological developments I didn't want to lose (I hope you won't call me overly materialistic for being attached to running water). I was convinced that when Machiach came 1) The lives of Jews would revert in every aspect to 2000 years ago and that 2) All the Jews in the world would have to move to one tiny country far away from my non-Jewish family members.

My teachers convinced me of two things:

1) We would not lose technological developments when Mashiach came - we could drive to the B'H instead of riding donkeys.

2) In a sense, the borders of E'Y would expand exponentially when Mashiach came. Heaven knows they varied enough during the times of the Tanach. My teachers said that not all Jews would have to live between the Yarden, Yam Hagadol, Kineret and Yam Hamelach. Just like Reuven, Gad, and Chatzi Menasheh lived over the Yarden, in the times of Mashiach it would be possible for Jews to live across the Atlantic and still get to Yerushalayim for the shalosh regalim. One even mentioned Arei Miklat being set up across the Eastern Seaboard.

Please don't call me immature for the views expressed above - I realize that they are the views of a child, but as there are shivim panim l'torah, I have chosen to embrace this interpretation as a vision of the times of Mashiach that I can daven for. You may call it childish, but especially after my negative experiences of Israel in my early 20's, I had to cling to what I had.

On the other hand, Hashem may create a lovely climate change, ahvas yisroel, and opening the borders to non-Jewish friends and family of Jews in times of Mashiach - all of which would remove my objections to living there. It is supposed to be a time of miracles after all.

OK, so your teachers managed to convince you that nothing would change when mashiach comes. You can continue to build Jerusalem in England's green and pleasant land. You can keep all your technology. You can stay with all your non-Jewish friends and family.

SO WHAT ARE YOU DAVENNING FOR WHEN YOU ASK FOR MASHIACH??? Why would you daven for mashiach? Why not just daven that Hashem won't bring mashiach and you can stay with your present lifestyle without all the bother?

Crying

Liba

Thu, Jan 31 2013, 4:55 am

amother wrote:

freidasima- insurance is not free in america!
so maybe if someone has good insurance, they have fewer co-pays or smaller co pays or cheaper meds or whatever. but they pay for that insurance! and its a heck of a lot of money!
and I earn a net salary of around 11,000 a month (I have a masters, but my current job has nothing to do wtih my degree). thats my salary, not including my husbands.

We paid $1,200 a month for health insurance for a family of 4 7 years ago. My inlaws are paying $1,500 a month now for the two of them. We paid $10-$35 per prescription if they were covered, many were not and had a life time cap on physical therapy, of 90 calendar days (that could be one visit or daily, but 90 days from the day therapy started) per condition per life time. Durable medical coverage was limited to $200 a year (that is about 3 days worth of tube feeding supplies paid for a year) and we needed authorization to see any specialists. When I had my babies we had a $2,000 deductible we had to pay for the hospital stay. Here we get a stipend deposited into our bank account. LOL

freidasima

Thu, Jan 31 2013, 5:00 am

And what about all those people in America whose employers pay their health insurance in total? They exist in droves and no such thing exists here.

Liba - that is only good if your meds are all covered by the "sal". If they are not there is a way to get the kupa to pay for part but you can't submit them for the "tikra" of every three months unfortunately, we know that law intimately because of the meds my dh takes.

Chossidmom, I agree in full that it is wonderful that you do it for "YOU" because you feel bad abroad without the kedusha of EY. What I mean though is that even for those who feel nothing , it's a mitzva, you get sachar for the mitzva period. I may feel nothing for shatnez but by keeping the mitzva and checking my stuff in the shatnez lab just in case, I get sachar for it. That's what I meant. One doesn't HAVE to have the spiritual feeling, it's enough that it is a mitzva and if you do it, you get sachar, period.

Amother with a net salary of 11,000 a month, is that shekels? Great. But that still doesn't make a difference to all those MA graduates who are still making half of what you are making, as their gross and not their net, and they exist in droves.

ChossidMom

Thu, Jan 31 2013, 5:02 am

freidasima wrote:

I agree with you 100%.

MountainRose

Thu, Jan 31 2013, 5:14 am

shalhevet wrote:

SO WHAT ARE YOU DAVENNING FOR WHEN YOU ASK FOR MASHIACH??? Why would you daven for mashiach? Why not just daven that Hashem won't bring mashiach and you can stay with your present lifestyle without all the bother?

Crying

I daven for mashiach so we can have nevuah back, so we can have a king - ben Dovid. I daven for the chance to bring a karbon pesach instead of pointed at a burnt bone. I daven for the chance to sit in the sukkah made from the skin of the Levyuson, and dance in the Ezras Nashim at the B'H on Simchas Torah. I daven for the closer relationship that we will have with Hashem and for the ahavas yisroel on which the coming of moshiach is contingent. I daven for the clarification of every machlokes and a clear spiritual leader for all of B'Y. I daven for the safe dominion of Hashem and His people over E'Y and peaceful borders with non-Jews. I daven for a time when Jews will be seen by other nations for what they are, not for the caricatures that thousands of years of galus makes us appear to most non-Jews who haven't met a Jew.

There is so much to look forward to in the times of Mashiach, not just moving to a different country.

If none of this means anything to you, and you already live in Israel, I think the real question is, what do you daven for when you ask for Mashiach?

ally

Thu, Jan 31 2013, 6:54 am

MountainRose wrote:

A fair number of you of you have said that it's ok not to live in Israel as long as you feel the lack - feel like there's something missing. I feel the lack of all sorts of mitzvahs I can't do - karbonos, shmita, anything having to do with the Beis Hamikdash - but I don't really focus on that lack. I don't live in a world where I can do them. The most I can do is try to to change the world by being a better person so Mashiach comes and then I can do them.

When I was a little girl, hearing about E'Y (didn't visit because my family couldn't afford it) I pictured this perfect land with wooded hills and shady glens, rivers and mountains and a lush greenery. As I grew up I realized that I had been picturing a climate much more likely in New England or Northern Europe, but I didn't realize how very different Israel was from that until I went on Birthright. They had us hiking in the Galil (I got so many blisters) and climbing Masada (I got heat exhaustion from the easy path) and swimming in Ein Gedi (not what I pictured as all - apparently an oasis isn't green at all, just more desert with a few palm trees and a waterfall). Less than halfway through I had a little meltdown, asking the tour leaders when we'd stop all the nature stuff and experience E'Y - Tzfat, Jerusalem, Kvarim, etc. I was told by our fourth generation madricha, rather angrily, that I hadn't come to E'Y, I'd come to Israel, and that I shouldn't confuse the two.

Unlike the E'Y of my girlish dreams, in Israel you have to pay for cool air, elbow your way up to a spot at the Kotel, and catch a ride in an armored bus to get to the kvarim.

I definitely feel the lack of the land I thought E'Y was, but I have not found a way to miss what the State of Israel is. I can only hope that when Mashiach comes, the land that Hashem promised us will somehow resemble what I heard about in my childhood.

In your opinion, does that fulfill the spiritual requirement of 'Ahavas Haeretz'?

Do you also still think that lollies are going to grow on trees when Moshiach comes?

And I second everything written in DrMom's post.

DrMom

Thu, Jan 31 2013, 8:49 am

MountainRose wrote:

DrMom wrote:

Secondly: You grew up thinking the climate in E"Y is like New England (you didn't know there was a desert here at all? seriously?) and it's really not, and you got blisters on a hike you took on a free trip to E"Y (didn't you check out the itinerary before you signed up your particular Birthright tour?) and because of this, you reject the very notion on living in E"Y? Do you realize how silly and whiney and spoiled that sounds?

About the climate in Israel, I was a kid and I thought when the Jews left the Midbar, they left the desert. I never researched it. My schools were more focused on the text on the Navi than describing the lay of the land. I never had a reason to challenge the subconscious impressions I got as a kid until I actually got to Israel.

Also, I didn't reject the idea of living in Israel based on my Brithright experience. I actually moved to Israel a few months after Birthright because I was aware how skewed my experience had been. What I was trying to illustrate with my story is the profound difference between the E'Y I have been raised to love and what it is like in that location now, millenia later. The very land has changed (archaeological evidence shows it used to be more fertile), and it is not what I was raised on. I will gladly visit, but it is not the place of the mitzvahs I was raised on.

Quote:

4. Why do you want mashiach to come? (I am asking completely seriously, this isn't tongue in cheek). What is lacking in your life that makes you want

I don't understand:
- Didn't you ever learn geography at any time in school? Didn't you ever read anything about current events in Israel? Perhaps a newspaper article with a photo? If you have a TV, did you ever watch the news when stories about Israel were on? Before you went on your Birthright trip, didn't anyone tell you what the climate was like? Every single guide book for Israel says "it's hot here! drink plenty of water and wear a hat". How do you -- as an adult -- just board a plane for Israel and actually expect to touch down in some place that looks like New England???

- As for not wanting to leave your hometown at age 11 because you didn't want to be without running water:

You don't mention how old you are, but I am figuring this: Birthright has been around since 1999 and is for participants between the ages 18-26. That means the oldest you could possibly be is 39 (I.e., assuming you were 26 years old in 1999). That would have made it 1985 when you were 11.
There was running water in cities and towns in Israel in 1985!!!

Tamiri

Thu, Jan 31 2013, 9:08 am

Before I visited Israel for the first time, my vision was that (a) the men would be dressed in suits wearing Shabbes clothes because it's so holy in Israel while at the same time (b) people would be walking around in bloomers and bare feet because that was what the pictures of kibbutznikim showed.
For my families first and only visit to Israel (the next trip was a year later for Aliya), my parents rented an apartment in Bayit Vegan (there was running water and there were regular toilets) and I went downstairs to walk around without shoes. I was the only one.
The year was 1972 and I was 9.5 so I can be forgiven for my fantasies, right?
I would expect people older than myself to have more realistic expectations of what the country is all about. It's not North America, nor is it Europe. The closest I've come to being able to compare Israel to North America is the Southwest. When we landed for the first time in Phoenix, my first thought was "it smells like Israel".
In any event, a little research can dispell many of the myths circulating here. But you have to want to dispell them, of course....
Do any of the "anti" posters REALLY think any of us living in EY is THAT much different than any one of you in terms of needs? Really?

freidasima

Thu, Jan 31 2013, 9:38 am

Liba, Tamiri, the "trufot shelo basal" part of the policies that used to be sold are now illegal. Latest legislation. The companies are still selling it, and when it comes time to cash in, then the government steps in and nixes it.

Yes of course we have private medical insurance, and we had terufot shelo basal, and when we tried to cash in we were told it is illegal today. One of litzman's dizzys that he did for us and it passed under the wire and hasn't really been made public much except for the people that get messed up by it. Why? Because seems that the kupot eventually give in if one belongs to one of two categories - 1) children up to age 18 with chronic illnesses 2) very large and technically poor families. For example, if there is a drug that used to exist and today the kupa will only give the geneeric equivalent, but it has been proven that the equivalent doesnt work the same way and can endanger the life of someone who has a particular problem, the kupa will not pay for the real drug. That BTW is what is going on with the lawsuit against the government for the eltroxin scandal...let's see what happens when it comes to court.