My Friend's DH Invited Me

Tablepoetry

Thu, Feb 14 2013, 2:17 pm

busydev wrote:

hey at least it mentions the wife.

Should we be grateful for that?
And I'm wondering why davka the charedi circles write 'ra'ayato' instead of her name. It certainly can't be because they are following 1950s English etiquette.
I'd guess it's because they think it's immodest to have a female name splattered on an invite. Which makes me wonder, since when did female names in public become immodest? Why doesn't the Torah write 'eshet Avraham' instead of Sara? And so on? Or are modern day charedi norms more modest than Sarah, Rivka and others?

b from nj

Thu, Feb 14 2013, 2:39 pm

Tablepoetry, I live in a mostly MO community in NJ & all the invitations I receive are made out to Mr. & Mrs <insert DH's first name or first initial> & <insert> aside from ones made out to couples where the women are makpid to go by their maiden names & those will say for example, Mr. Ploni Almoni & Mrs. Plonit Almonit.

One the return envelopes, it will usually list the wife's first name followed by the husband's first name & then their last names unless again the wife uses her maiden name & then it will list it as Plonit Almonit & Ploni Almoni.

Last edited by b from nj on Thu, Feb 14 2013, 2:52 pm; edited 2 times in total

Sherri

Thu, Feb 14 2013, 2:41 pm

Rutabaga wrote:

I just received an invitation to a tzedakah event addressed to Mrs. DH's name Last name. The event is for women only so why can't they put a woman's name on the invite? Needless to say, it went straight into the garbage.

You threw it out? I think that's actually the proper way to address the invite. Fox usually posts about this. Smile

b from nj

Thu, Feb 14 2013, 2:53 pm

b from nj wrote:

Why isn't imamother allowing me to write {insert our last name} after the first insert I wrote above?!!! So annoying!!!!

September June

Thu, Feb 14 2013, 3:14 pm

Sherri wrote:

Rutabaga wrote:

You threw it out? I think that's actually the proper way to address the invite. Fox usually posts about this. Smile

Yup, still waiting for her to show up here! (Wasn't she the one that wouldn't trust the kashrus at an organization's dinners since they address the invites Mrs. Herfirstname Lastname and didn't care that it wasn't proper etiquette when she pointed it out?)

Sherri

Thu, Feb 14 2013, 3:34 pm

September June wrote:

Sherri wrote:

Rutabaga wrote:

You threw it out? I think that's actually the proper way to address the invite. Fox usually posts about this. Smile

Yes! That is why I find it ironic that Rutabaga displayed reverse discrimination.

Rutabaga

Thu, Feb 14 2013, 4:10 pm

Sherri wrote:

September June wrote:

Sherri wrote:

Rutabaga wrote:

You threw it out? I think that's actually the proper way to address the invite. Fox usually posts about this. Smile

Yes! That is why I find it ironic that Rutabaga displayed reverse discrimination.

I don't mind invitations addressed to a couple as Mr. and Mrs. Hisfirstname Lastname, because that is the convention. But I think that an invitation addressed only to a woman should acknowledge her as an independent entity. That is why I prefer Mrs. Herfirstname Lastname to Mrs. Hisfirstname Lastname.

Merrymom

Thu, Feb 14 2013, 4:54 pm

zaq wrote:

In practical terms, "Mr. Michael Friedman and his wife" is no different from "Mr. & Mrs. Michael Friedman", which is the usual style used on formal invitations. So

Merrymom--did you expect the invite to say "Mr. Michael Friedman and Evelyn (Goetz) Friedman and Mr. Shulem Boiberik and Hinda (Glucksman) Boiberik request....." ? If you can't keep track of your friend's married name, then my guess is she's not that close a friend. And if the invite had said Mr. & Mrs. Michael Friedman, or Michael & Evelyn Friedman, you still wouldn't know who it was.

OTOH I share your ire if the mothers aren't mentioned even in passing and the invite reads "Mr. Michoyel Friedman and Rabbi Shulem Boiverik request..."

It's a slippery slope, ladies. Stock up on your burkas and flat black rubber-soled shoes now before the price goes up.

To clarify, yes it says Mr. & Mrs. with his first name only. The name is familiar enough that I know it's someone I went to school with but I can't remember who. As I said I know some friends by their maiden name, not their married ones, even after so many years. On a practical level it's annoying to have to start making calls to see who invited me. That just triggered my annoyance (to put it mildly) with a custom that really does make frum society seem backward and gives the idea that we're treated like second class citizens. When I make weddings for my children and invite MY friends, I don't deserve to have my own name on the invitation? Do I not exist? Is this not my child too? How come it's ok to mention the kallah's name but c"v we should mention the mother's name? I propose that we do away with putting the kallah's name on the invitation, it's really not tznius. Moishy is getting married, never mind to who, you perv Rolling Eyes

September June

Thu, Feb 14 2013, 4:56 pm

Merrymom wrote:

zaq wrote:

It's not tznius; it's etiquette.

(Where's Fox?)

Avrahamamma

Thu, Feb 14 2013, 4:59 pm

Uummm I have gotten invites from non jews that say Mr. and Mrs. David smith blah blah blah. Let's not make mountains out of molehills. Its not that uncommon in any circle.

b from nj

Thu, Feb 14 2013, 5:04 pm

Avrahamamma wrote:

Uummm I have gotten invites from non jews that say Mr. and Mrs. David smith blah blah blah. Let's not make mountains out of molehills. Its not that uncommon in any circle.

I agree! It is TOTALLY normal & if any friends of mine don't want to come to a future simcha of mine that says Mr. & Mrs MyDHsfirstname & Ourlastname on the invitation, then that is THEIR problem & they can stay home if they are so petty.

amother

Thu, Feb 14 2013, 5:10 pm

I have received invitations (esp. from EY if the wife is meyucheset) that say
Rabbi Ploni Almoni
veReyaso leBet Elimelech.

That way you get a clue! Also, often these days, grandparents are listed below as well, so that helps.

Recently a mechutenet (let's call her Sara) asked us to put wives names; she felt, as mentioned above, that she bore & raised the child. & deserved an honorable mention.

And then told us that a previous mechutenet (let's call her Rivka) had graciously agreed to their request. An invitation sent out by Rivka was returned by USPS to Sara (because, you know, both parents are listed on the back, and USPS picks one at random when they can't deliver).

And only then did she realize that ~~Leah~~ Rivka had printed two sets of invites. Those sent out for Sara had the ladies' names. Those sent out by Rivka didn't. [Wait, did I get confused myself? Yes indeed! Okay, fixed it.]

gold21

Thu, Feb 14 2013, 6:49 pm

It may be proper etiquette to write it as "mr and mrs Yankel Katz " but it really comes across as old fashioned. The moms first name should really be included. Time for the etiquette rules to modernize.

penguin

Thu, Feb 14 2013, 6:51 pm

It actually annoys me when the paper writes Mr. and Mrs. Shmer'l and Shprintzy Cohen. Why can't they write Mr. Shmer'lm & Mrs. Shprintzy?

b from nj

Thu, Feb 14 2013, 7:02 pm

penguin wrote:

It actually annoys me when the paper writes Mr. and Mrs. Shmer'l and Shprintzy Cohen. Why can't they write Mr. Shmer'lm & Mrs. Shprintzy?

Oy really?!!!

Fox

Fri, Feb 15 2013, 7:43 am

Here I am! Here I am!

Okay -- here's the background on all this:

The History of Mrs.
"Mrs." is an abbreviation for the Old English phrase "mistress of." In this case, "mistress" means "wife," not "horse-faced hoochie mama on the side." The equivalent French expression was "chatelaine." It was a title of honor that conveyed not just the information that a couple was officially married, but rather, that the man was a property holder with enough of a "household" that it required managing. In fact, in the late Middle Ages, a woman could be addressed as "Mrs." without being officially married. In other words, the title said more about the couple's property and responsibilities than it said about their intimate life or affections.

Therefore, it is perfectly acceptable to invite "Mrs. Ellen DeGeneres" to your party if you're hoping Portia will show up.

Divorced Women's Names
Divorced women, however, are formally referred to as "Mrs. Original Last Name + Married Last Name." Of course, in this day and age, that can get quite cumbersome. You may have to downsize your invitation font if you're inviting "Mrs. Ciccone Penn Ritchie" or "Mrs. Guynes Moore Willis Kutcher" (she seems a little high-strung, anyway, so maybe it's just as well to leave her off the guest list).

Professional Names
Professional women, even hundreds of years ago, have traditionally used different names to identify themselves professionally versus socially. At my alma mater, for example, the long-held custom is that donations and dedications from women in the entertainment industry are always given using the woman's social -- not professional name.

It's a kind of one-upsmanship snobbery: you're supposed to just know that Mr. and Mrs. Brad Hall could have probably been more generous, what with all those Seinfeld profits plus her family money, and that Mr. and Mrs. Roger Smith are getting along in years and his health isn't what it used to be, though it was nice that she won that Emmy for a guest appearance a few years ago.

So inviting a woman to a social event using her social name implies that you want her there for her delightful company. Inviting Mrs. Brad Hall suggests that you'll be chatting about kids and work, and that she is not expected to provide improvisational comedy as entertainment. Inviting Mrs. Roger Smith suggests that you are not expecting her to break into a chorus of "Viva Las Vegas."

Call Me Ms.
All this brings us to one of the best inventions of the last half-century: Ms.

"Ms.," despite the magazine of the same name, did not catch on because of feminist sentiment. It caught on because it was so useful. When women began entering professions and business in large numbers, there was really no good way to refer to them. "Mrs." puts the emphasis on the marital relationship and who hires and fires the cleaning lady. "Mrs." with the woman's first name and last name suggests that there's a third woman in the household, perhaps a la Sister Wives.

"Ms.," however, allows women to be addressed correctly at work -- and possibly socially -- without any historical baggage or assumptions about marital status or roles connected to it. It would be lovely if, like the French, we simply used approximate age to dole out titles (e.g., up to a certain age, you're "Mademoiselle, " and then you ease into "Madame" -- regardless of the presence of a corresponding Monsieur), but that's not how English usage developed.

As a result, you may invite Ms. Ellen DeGeneres and Ms. Portia de Rossi to your party without any sly connotations about who pays the electric bill or calls the exterminator when there's a mouse.

I am delighted to be addressed socially as "Mrs. Chaim Fox." I am thrilled to be addressed as "Ms. Chani Fox." But DO NOT call me "Mrs. Chani Fox."

When I get invitations and the like addressed to "Mrs. Chani Fox," it says one of two things to me: (1) This person doesn't know how titles work and desperately needs a copy of "Miss Manners"; or (2) This person considers herself to be a free spirit (and probably a special snowflake) who is too modern and "with it" to follow a bunch of stuffy old rules.

Of course, I have a great deal more sympathy for the first situation; we've all been in similar situations.

I have very little patience for people in the second category, however. I consider them mealy-mouthed and unprincipled. Why? Because they refuse to stand up for their convictions: if they really dislike using formal social address because they feel it's sexist, why don't they use "Ms."?

Moreover, they seem to think that they are such with-it little snowflakes that they get to make up their own rules. Really? And then they expect me to trust their kashrus or rely on them to properly account for a charity's money?

Even More Rules
In case you think I'm picking on the "Mrs." issue unfairly, there are lots of other usage rules concerning titles. For example, one should never "give oneself" a title. In other words, when I call someone on the phone, I say, "Hi, this is Chani Fox" rather than "This is Mrs. Fox," even if the relationship is such that the other person will call me "Mrs. Fox."

Physicians may use "Dr." as a social title. Holders of academic degrees may not. Yes, I know it's not fair. To make a real statement, however, people who finished their dissertations don't even use "Dr." professionally -- they pretend that they work in such rarefied circles that everyone has a doctorate, and therefore using the title is just extraneous, a la Big Bang Theory, in which doctorates are only notable in their absence.

Arguing about this stuff is the equivalent of arguing about the conjugation of verbs. You can like it or not like it, but it's not really a matter of opinion. If you don't like the traditional "Mrs. Chaim Fox" format, then use "Ms." But have the courage of your convictions!

Barbara

Fri, Feb 15 2013, 8:03 am

Fox wrote:

Here I am! Here I am!

Okay -- here's the background on all this:
SNIP
Divorced Women's Names
Divorced women, however, are formally referred to as "Mrs. Original Last Name + Married Last Name." Of course, in this day and age, that can get quite cumbersome. You may have to downsize your invitation font if you're inviting "Mrs. Ciccone Penn Ritchie" or "Mrs. Guynes Moore Willis Kutcher" (she seems a little high-strung, anyway, so maybe it's just as well to leave her off the guest list).
SNIP

While that may be technically correct, it is a form that is virtually never used, and I would certainly never suggest or recommend that anyone address an invitation in that manner. In general, a divorced woman is known as Mrs. Herfirstname Herlastname (with Herlastname being whatever name she uses)

See http://www.emilypost.com/forms.....dence

Fox

Fri, Feb 15 2013, 8:08 am

Barbara wrote:

Quite true! Thus making "Ms." even more useful and "Mrs. Chani Fox" even more inappropriate. While I appreciate the suggestions of so many correspondents that I should dump ol' Chaim, I'd prefer to make the decision myself!

It seems prudent to simply invite Ms. Demi Moore and call it a day. Not sure how to address Madonna's invite, but I'm not sure I have patience for all the Kabbalah stuff, anyway.

LOL

watergirl

Fri, Feb 15 2013, 8:28 am

I just want to say that I am really enjoying everyones names for examples!

zaq

Fri, Feb 15 2013, 9:23 am

Raisin wrote:

So, if it is leftover etiquette from an era when everyone was sexist and womens names were left out of invitations (Mr and Mrs Michael Cohen is leaving out the womans name, you know michael is married but to which woman is completely irrelevant) thats absolutely fine according to zaq, .

Hey, lady, I'll thank you not to put words in my mouth. Did I say I approve of "Mr. & Mrs. George Foreman"? I did not. I pointed out that " Rabbi Meshulem and his wife" is no different from "Mr. & Mrs. George". You can be pretty sure that when the Zaqarias family has a simcha, the invitations are from Zalman and Zenobia Zaqarias, not Mr. & Mrs. Zalman Zaqarias.

Merrymom has still not clarified whether the invite ignored the wives entirely, so that one might believe that the baalei hasimcha are widowers, nebach, or whether the wives were referred to as "Mrs. Husbandsname" or "..and his wife." At least if the wives are mentioned, albeit solely as adjuncts to their dhs and not identified as individuals in their own right, one is aware of their existence, shadowy though it may be.

I, too, grit my teeth when I see the letterhead of a women's organization listing Mrs. Heshy Ready, Mrs. Mordechai Goetz, Mrs. Velvel Sundheim et. al. I know a Yetta Rombauer and a Chana Rombauer, an Aviva Ready and a Helen Ready, a Charna Sundheim, a Marsha Sundheim and a Shoshana Sundheim. Not only do I not know their dhs, I don't even know their dhs names.

I am equally irritated by simcha announcements to the effect that Shnebby Gemutlich, son of Rabbi Tuvia Gemutlich, is engaged to the daughter of Reb Koppel Pretzel. Reb Koppel has at least six daughters (KAH), one of whom was in my Weight Watchers group fifteen years ago. But I'll never know if Gretl Pretzel found a shidduch after losing 80 lbs., or if the bride is her anorexic sister, because the bride has no name.