My Friend's DH Invited Me

DrMom

Sun, Feb 17 2013, 7:21 am

Fox:

I don't think people who address women as "Mrs. HerFirstname Lastname" are trying to be rebellious/snowflakes/freespirits/anything really.

It's so commonplace now to use this form of address, they are probably just trying to use what they see as established convention.

Honestly, I think you are making a mountain out of a teeny-tiny molehill.

Fox

Sun, Feb 17 2013, 7:52 am

DrMom wrote:

Probably, but the only place I routinely see the "Mrs. Chani Fox" usage is in the frum world. If a non-Jewish neighbor invites me to her sister's bridal shower, the invitation always says, "Ms. Chani Fox." And if she's hoping DH and I will send a nice gift in lieu of attending the Saturday afternoon event at St. Theresa's, she'll send the invitation to "Mr. and Mrs. Chaim Fox."

Thus, the reason I'm so strident about it is that it seems like heimishness run amok. If you're going to the expense and aggravation of printing expensive formal invitations, then why not do it right? If you're having an informal affair, send emails that say, "Hey! Party hearty time when Kim & Kanye tie the knot while Kris sells video footage." Trying to mix up formats to avoid possible criticism just seems, well, cowardly.

And what I really can't figure out is that many of the people who generally detest excessive heimishness are the people who want to use this made-up format that, at best, suggests that we're all divorced.

DrMom

Sun, Feb 17 2013, 8:21 am

Fox, as I said, order any airline ticket online or fill in any online form. Ineveitable you will be asked to check one: Mr,. Miss, Mrs., Ms. When you get your boarding pass, it will read:

Mrs. Chani Fox

It's not a "heimish thing." It's the default these days. I don't think most people assume that "Mrs. Chani Fox" is divorced or widowed.

Fox

Sun, Feb 17 2013, 8:56 am

DrMom wrote:

Fox, as I said, order any airline ticket online or fill in any online form. Ineveitable you will be asked to check one: Mr,. Miss, Mrs., Ms. When you get your boarding pass, it will read:

Mrs. Chani Fox

It's not a "heimish thing." It's the default these days. I don't think most people assume that "Mrs. Chani Fox" is divorced or widowed.

Well, of course! I you fill in "Mrs." the computer is going to spit out "Mrs." as your title. If you type in "HRH," the computer doesn't check to make sure it's really appropriate to address you as "Her Royal Highness." Why on earth would I fill in "Mrs." as my title in a business transaction? Stuffing myself into a large metal cylinder like a sardine for purposes of transport is not a social situation.

Like I said, I see no evidence that it is the "default" anywhere but in frum circles. Everybody uses "Ms." if they want to use the woman's first name.

And if you think I'm strident about it, try discussing it with someone who uses her original name either professionally or both professionally and socially. The "Mrs. Chani Fox" construction is really offensive under those circumstances.

So I truly don't get it: posters say they are offended by being called "Mrs. Chaim Fox," because they want their own first names on the outside of the envelope. But assuming that "Mrs. Chaim Fox" is the same person as "Mrs. Chani Fox" seems out of step with the times or at least deliberately obtuse. She might be "Ms. Chani Wolf" or "Ms. Chani Wolf-Fox." How is completely mangling someone's name better than using "Mrs. Chaim Fox"?

But like I said, when I see "Mrs. Chani Fox" on the outside of an envelope, I don't think I'm being honored in some way by having my first name printed. I think, "Wow. Nebach. Grow spines, ladies! If it means so much to put women's first names on your envelopes, don't cower behind some goofball formula that you made up or copied from equally ignorant people. Put on your big girl panties and use 'Ms.' like the rest of the world."

DrMom

Sun, Feb 17 2013, 9:02 am

Fox wrote:

Like I said, I see no evidence that it is the "default" anywhere but in frum circles. Everybody uses "Ms." if they want to use the woman's first name.

And if you think I'm strident about it, try discussing it with someone who uses her original name either professionally or both professionally and socially. The "Mrs. Chani Fox" construction is really offensive under those circumstances.

I agree that "Ms." is preferable. But I'd certainly prefer "Mrs. MyFirstName MyLastName" to "Mrs. DH'sFirstName DH'sLastName."

I think it's weird to be addressed as "Mrs." followed by my DH's name.

But as long as my name appears in some form on an invitation envelope, I don't get too worked up over it. A lot of it is due to cluelessness, not malice. I draw the line at this "v'rayat"o business, though.

Tablepoetry

Sun, Feb 17 2013, 9:17 am

DrMom wrote:

It's so commonplace now to use this form of address, they are probably just trying to use what they see as established convention.Honestly, I think you are making a mountain out of a teeny-tiny molehill.

This. I have the feeling that it's already established convention that Mrs. Her Name Last Name is perfectly fine. Of course, I don't live in an anglo country so I don't really know....and even those of you who do, only know what's going on in your own little corner.
Maybe someone wants to create a poll? Are you regularly addressed as Mrs. Your First Name Last Name? Do you regularly address others this way? Do you do it because it's convention or because you think you're a special snowflake?

If I have time later and no one gets to the poll before me, I'll do it. I'm pretty sure it'll be pretty telling, and I have the feeling that the special snowflakes are people who insist 1950s naming conventions are set in stone.

Tablepoetry

Sun, Feb 17 2013, 9:21 am

Fox wrote:

Tablepoetry wrote:

You don't trust someone's kashrut because they use Mrs. and their own name? You think they're a snowflake?

Wow.

No, I don't trust their ability to follow rules. Why? Because they've publicly announced that they don't believe in rules. Or that rules change over time, and that they have appointed themselves arbitrators of what has or hasn't changed..

Don't they change? And who is arbitrator? You?

Fox wrote:

You are correct that "Ms." once had connotations of strident feminism. But that was in the 1970s. The magazine of the same name stopped publishing on a monthly basis in 1987, and stopped taking paid advertising a few years later. It functions as little more than an online outlet for light reporting of research and op-ed pieces. The title has long outlived its association with the feminist movement.

In fact, "Ms." dates originally to the first part of the 20th century and was promoted by office professionals in the 1950s. It's the default used in business today, and since you don't give yourself a title, anyway, it says nothing about your philosophies regarding gender roles. People didn't start using "Ms." so universally because they suddenly became committed feminists; they used it because there was a pressing need for a title that could be used correctly with a woman's first name and did not involve marital status.

I know perfectly well that Ms. was once a magazine. I was not referring to that at all. I was referring to the fact that Ms. is used specifically so that people will not know your marital status. For some, that is too Feminist. They want to socially proclaim their marital status and find the term Ms. too aggressively neutral (oxymoron, but there you have it).
I personally have no problem with Ms, just saying that some others do. In fact, enough do that they've kept to Mrs., but it's become CONVENTION to also often use their own name.

Tablepoetry

Sun, Feb 17 2013, 11:57 am

From Wikipedia:

Modern usage of Mrs.

It is now very uncommon for a woman to be addressed using her husband's first name, although this still sometimes occurs if a couple is being addressed jointly, such as in Mr. and Mrs. John Smith.

Many married women still use the title with their husband's last name, but retaining their first name, Mrs. Jane Smith, while many have eschewed the title completely in professional life, utilizing Ms.. Any choice of title, first, and last name is considered acceptable both socially and professionally today.
Modern etiquette provides various options in addressing married couples in which the wife uses her own last name, or uses a title such as Dr. or Mayor. Etiquette writer Judith Martin (Miss Manners) generally advises in non-standard situations, the individuals be addressed in separate lines on invitations (Dr. Sue Martin/Mr. John Martin).

In direct address, a woman with the title Mrs. may be addressed Mrs. [Lastname], or with the stand alone Madam or Ma'am, though these are most often used for all adult women regardless of marital status in modern conversation.

Sooo.....are all the writers at Wikipedia frum snowflakes?

Ruchel

Mon, Feb 18 2013, 5:36 am

I often see
Mr and Mrs John and Jane Smith
or Mr and Mrs John and Jane (Doe) Smith / Smith-Doe

Merrymom

Mon, Feb 18 2013, 9:45 am

Why do we continue talking about what has been acceptable in our society for hundreds of years. What does that have to do with me today in the year 2013? Do you all want to continue doing things that have been done for hundreds of years no matter how insulting, just because there's been a precedent for it?

sweetpotato

Thu, Feb 21 2013, 12:14 am

I once received an invitation to a wedding with the parents' names listed thus:

Mr. Moshe and Tzippora Rabinowitz
Mr. Avraham and Sara Avinu

The husbands got honorifics, but not the wives. Though after reading this thread and learning that "Mrs." means "mistress of" and only properly goes with the husband's name, maybe they were actually wording this correctly. Either way, it looked silly.

wif

Thu, Feb 21 2013, 1:28 am

Interesting discussion.

I'm just here for the funny made-up names.

wif

Thu, Feb 21 2013, 1:34 am

Also, I recently saw a monthly neighborhood newsletter (not my neighborhood) in which miracles were documented! There were men having babies!

No, seriously, it would say,

Baby to Rabbi Yechiel Yankel McJewstein

AND!

Moshe Bigshnoz engage to Rabbi Yossi Hozenplotches's daughter.

Miracles, I say!

Last edited by wif on Thu, Feb 21 2013, 6:54 am; edited 2 times in total

zaq

Thu, Feb 21 2013, 6:46 am

wif wrote:

I'm just here for the funny made-up names.

What a coincidence--I'm just here as an excuse to make up funny names.

wif

Thu, Feb 21 2013, 6:54 am

zaq wrote:

wif wrote:

I'm just here for the funny made-up names.

What a coincidence--I'm just here as an excuse to make up funny names.

And in that spirit, I edited my previous post. To funnify the names.

Fox

Thu, Feb 21 2013, 9:02 am

Merrymom wrote:

Here's the only reason I get involved in this debate repeatedly. Your post and others assume that something you find insulting is ipso facto insulting to everyone and therefore objectively wrong. Well, there are plenty of people out there who are equally insulted by all the formulations people come up with in order to somehow insert a woman's first name after a title that wasn't meant for it.

Actually, "insulted" is the wrong word. Most people I know who share my shtark approach to titles feel like I do: it's simply an example of sloppiness; people aren't taught this stuff, and, nebach, they don't know any better.

When my DD was bas mitzvah a number of years ago, we made a Shabbos afternoon party in our home. The invitations were extended by me, "Mrs. Chaim Fox". The teacher actually said to my daughter, "You might want to tell your mother that there's a typo on the invitation just in case she hasn't sent them all out yet." This was a woman who was born and raised in the US and whose mama loshen is English. Well, how would she know?! No one ever taught her. So how "insulted" can I get? It doesn't make her a bad person; it just her seem provincial and unknowledgeable.

Tablepoetry wrote:

I was referring to the fact that Ms. is used specifically so that people will not know your marital status. For some, that is too Feminist. They want to socially proclaim their marital status and find the term Ms. too aggressively neutral (oxymoron, but there you have it).

Well, this is the oxymoron that I find so obnoxious. One on hand, all these anonymous women are insulted if their own first names aren't part of every parlor meeting invite that arrives via snail mail. On the other hand, they refuse to use "Ms." because, G-d forbid, they don't want anyone to think they might be feminists.

I say, "Make up your minds, ladies." If you feel so strongly about having your own first name on everything, then surely you're willing to run the risk that someone might (gasp!) think you have feminist tendencies!

Then-and-There versus Here-and-Now
It's always a hoot when people describe relatively recent eras as if they occurred hundreds or thousands of years ago. Saying, "We don't want to go back to the 1950s!" makes it sound as if we're debating the merits of trenchers versus plates.

Granted, etiquette changes. Here's Judith Martin (Miss Manners) on the topic:

Quote:

I always try to keep it a secret that etiquette changes. But, of course, it does in order to keep up with society and the reason I don’t like spreading this around is because then people think that they can just change it arbitrarily themselves, which they can’t. And it’s always in their own favor without regard to the needs of others. We suffered from one of those periodic times which occurred in the mid-20th century, but it had also occurred in previous centuries, where people think manners are a nuisance and you should just behave, what they think of as naturally.

In fact, etiquette changed in the 1980s when "Ms." became the de facto way to address women in business. Yes, there was a lot of noise about feminism, but the change was not really driven by feminist activists; it was driven by the business world, where it provided a convenient solution to a lingering problem.

So why do I think it's "snowflake-like" to insist on using "Mrs. Chani Fox"? Because it ignores the actual change in etiquette that occurred; it's a way of saying, "Well, I didn't like the original rule, but I don't like the new rule, so I'll just do something different." The fact that you might know a lot of people who are either ignorant of the correct usage or happen to agree with you is irrelevant.

There are many people, at least in the US, who say "ain't" or use double-negatives. Most are fine individuals, and some can back up their usage with linguistic research demonstrating that their ancestors spoke the same way in Scotland. Great! They have a fantastic cultural heritage and some pretty cool tartans. But it's still not considered standard English.

Who Makes the Rules
Just as I have a rav for halachic and hashkafic issues, Judith Martin is my "rav", lehavdil, for etiquette, and I usually look to her advice as long as it doesn't conflict with halacha, hashkafa, or uniquely Jewish practices. In fact, I've emailed her on several occasions through her website, and she or a member of her staff has always responded very helpfully.

I didn't choose her as my "etiquette rav" willy-nilly; I've followed her since I was in college, and the reason I listen to her is because she is actually a very dedicated researcher; she doesn't rely on common misconceptions; and she is a great advocate for etiquette as a tool in achieving social justice. She never equivocates -- a quality that is sorely lacking in Emily Post.

She addresses (no pun intended!) the history and usage of Miss, Mrs., and Ms. extensively and far more eloquently than I ever could in Miss Manners' Guide to Excruciatingly Correct Behavior as well as Miss Manners' Guide for the Turn of the Millennium.

So, no, I don't hold myself up as an arbitrator. Nor do I follow the crowd, despite those hilarious ads from a frum furniture vendor that touts the advisability of doing so. I listen to the recommendations of someone far more knowledgeable than I in the matter at hand, and attempt to apply the advice appropriately, though not blindly.

Isramom8

Thu, Feb 21 2013, 9:16 am

Fox and others,

What do I do if I want to be acknowledged as:
1. undoubtedly married
and
2. having my own identity within my marriage
?

Mrs. Firstname Isramom would work for me.

Theoretical, because I don't think it's important enough to deal with at all.

zaq

Thu, Feb 21 2013, 9:30 am

Just go get some sort of religious ordination from an online diploma-mill so you can be addressed as Reverend and be done with it.

Fox

Thu, Feb 21 2013, 9:30 am

I guess I would say, "That's a lot of heavy-duty personal information to try to get across in just a name!"

I'm not really looking to say anything about my sense of self or my identity within my marriage. If that were the case, I'd vary my title depending on how mad I am at DH at any given time (although that's a very interesting idea!). And I'm not entirely sure I want to know that much about the people to whom I have occasion to send letters!

I'd be happy if I could convey that "Mrs. Chaim Fox" does not wish to talk about why your computer always freezes when you have 72 programs running at a time; however, "Ms. Chani Fox" will be delighted to tell you to close at least 69 of those programs, and she will then send you a bill for her sage advice.

"Mrs. Chani Fox" seems to send the message that I'll not only discuss computer problems while attending a simcha or ladies' tea, but I'll do so for free.

LOL

DrMom

Thu, Feb 21 2013, 9:36 am

I think Judith Martin is a quaint, well-meaning woman, but I don't hang on her every word.

Same for Emily Post or Ann Landers or that annoying know-it-all "Ethicist" guy who used to write for the NY Times.