Low materialism vs. Mommy's paying for it

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amother

Mon, Apr 08 2013, 10:05 am

I'm posting on here because I need to emote, and I'm not allowed to tell this to anyone except my dh, and I feel so strange about this whole thing.

I come from a very well-off family. They're OOT MO, never flaunted any of their money, lived in a normal-sized but nicely done house, etc. My mother is wonderful, very caring, and really tries to respect our boundaries. I moved to the right in high school and beyond, and although my mother believed all the stereotypes about kollel guys, and she really tried to disuade me from going out with them, I ended up marrying one anyway. (Side point, but I think she's finally admitted at least ONE kollel guy doesn't fit the stereotypes.)

Anyway, I have a lot of money put away for me. I didn't know about it as a kid, and my parents only told us about it when we were engaged. It was a very strange experience for me emotionally because I never felt rich, and here I have hundreds of thousands of dollars sitting in the bank. They said it was meant to go towards a house with some leftover, and they encouraged us to use it right away instead of renting. We didn't feel comfortable doing that, though, because it would majorly stand out and make us seem like the "rich" kollel couple, and we weren't comfortable with that. So we lived on my salary for the less than a decade that we were in kollel, living frugally. We tapped into the savings a couple of times for a short term thing, like when I wasn't getting paid during maternity leave, but only took out a small drop in the greater scheme of things. My parents didn't support us, although they did buy clothes for the kids and things like that sometimes, which was really helpful.

Dh is working now, and we decided it was time to buy a house (with several kids in a small two-bedroom apartment). We found one and just closed on it. We're using the money to buy it, and we are so grateful that we won't have to struggle to pay the mortgage (although honestly, we won't be able to live less frugally, because whatever money we have left because of that will be swallowed up by tuition! But I'm glad we'll be able to pay full tuition, at least for a while). My mother came to look at the house yesterday -- I was excited to show it to her -- and she was suggesting all of these renovations. I calmly but firmly told her that we're only making the renovations necessary to make the home functionable. Things like fixing the roof, etc. So she told me that she wants to give us money but that she's going to give it to us for specific uses, such as to install two stainless steel sinks in the kitchen instead of one cheaper one, install granite countertops in the kitchen, add a built-in, things like that. Obviously we'd choose which granite countertops, etc, but the money would be earmarked towards these specific things. She also said that we should NOT tell anyone at all about this. My siblings are very well-off, and she didn't give them anything to do their homes. They all have very very nice homes, redid pretty much everything, lots of renovating. So she doesn't want them to be jealous.

I feel so strange about this whole thing. As I said, my mother is generally good with boundaries, so this is not a symptom of a larger problem or anything. And I'm so grateful that she wants to help me be more comfortable. And yes, although it's a luxury to have two sinks, two ovens, two dishwashers, granite counters, etc, it definitely does make life easier. But we've really been so happy living a typical "kollel" life, even since my dh has been out of kollel..living frugally, nothing ostentatious, not having any more than the average person around us. And now...we're not going to be living in a mansion or anything, but something feels wrong with this whole thing. Like it's against our ideals or something.

I'm not sure if I'm looking for advice, or for you all to tell me if I'm being ridiculous one way or the other...I'm just very confused about this whole thing.

amother

Mon, Apr 08 2013, 10:33 am

I think the question is - why do you feel weird about it? I have a somewhat similar situation in my life but I don't want to put words in your mouth.

I also come from a well-off family but DH and I will never have nearly the amount I grew up with - though we are happy with what we have and so grateful to be able to function on a daily basis, living frugally and not ostentatiously, like OP described. Both sets of parents will randomly offer to pay for something... and I suppose it bothers me because it seems like pity. Like the OP seems to describe, we chose a lifestyle with certain ideals, and we don't need help. We don't want to be made to feel like the stupid kids who are pitied and are wishing for a better life but can't afford it. We want to have our choices to not be obsessed with materialism (because we CAN afford rent and food and everyday expenses, we just don't splurge on fancy vacations or clothes or meat during the week etc.) to be respected, rather than looked down upon. We don't want to seem like we need help because we chose a different sort of life. Like, it would be one thing if ch'v we were desperate and needed money for an emergency. But for luxuries... Confused

And maybe it's tougher for you OP (like it is for me) because you grew up with these little luxuries that you didn't see as luxuries, like 2 sinks and granite counter tops. And you didn't see it as ostentatious because your family wasn't showy and you didn't realize how much those things cost.

I guess what it comes down to is ... will your parents hold it against you?
If not... accept it as a gift. Maybe choose the cheapest sort of granite (I know nothing about this so excuse my ignorance on the topic of kitchen counters...) and find a cheaper way to install these things. Or maybe work out a budget with your parents, an amount you're comfortable accepting, and then choose what is most important/will make your life easier (I wish I had two sinks!!) This way, you will be still living according to your ideals, not spending lavishly but rather, responsibly, according to your means at hand.

If you decide to accept, count yourself as lucky to have such wonderful and generous parents Smile

amother

Mon, Apr 08 2013, 10:48 am

All I can say is that I admire your discipline to sit on that money for so many years. Neither my husband or I would have lasted a year.
And I think you are blessed to have such a caring and generous mother.
I don't know how much weight you'll want to give my advice because I can't really relate to wanting to live simply when you don't have to. I love nice things. But it seems to me that:
#1 It's a bit silly to make choices in kitchen design based on what the neighbors will think of you. Are they really so shallow that a granite counter will make them treat you differently?
#2 It you really feel the kitchen your mother is proposing is just too ostentatious for your life style, consider skipping the things that are just for looks (granite) and going for the things that really do make life easier (2 sinks, 2 ovens, etc.) and getting them in simple styles, but at least have them.

Fox

Mon, Apr 08 2013, 10:58 am

Wow! Kudos to you and kudos to your parents for raising a daughter with such a great attitude toward affluence! I wish your parents would write a book or give lectures on how they did it. A lot of people could learn from their example!

Since my usual role here on imamother is urging everyone to tone down their expenditures, you may be surprised to hear me say that I think at least some of your mother's suggestions may be valid. A house is a long-term investment, and keeping it in optimal resale condition over the years will ensure that you have a valuable asset in the future.

So here's how I would proceed. Find a trustworthy real estate professional (an agent and/or an appraiser) as well as doing a little research on your own. Find out what kind of renovations would genuinely add value to the house, and what fall more under the short-term "decorating" category. Also research how well various features hold up over time. I'm far from an expert, but from what I understand, granite countertops are very high-maintenance. The same with certain types of flooring, etc.

If one of your mother's suggestions will genuinely add value to your house in the long run -- without causing it to make neighbors' homes look shabby -- then it's probably a good use of your family's resources. If it falls into the category of "decorating" (e.g., new window treatments), you can use your own judgment and decline. If the renovation will truly add to the value of the house (without turning it into a showplace), however, I would urge you to accept your mother's gift. Using family resources to improve a long-term asset is not the same as spending on clothing, vacations, etc.

Simple1

Mon, Apr 08 2013, 11:16 am

I like Fox's post.

I also think you should go for things that will make your house more functional and easier to keep a kosher kitchen. It will hopefully enable to do good things, like have guests more graciously, make suppers for those in need, etc., which will mean you are using your money for a good purpose.

Liba

Mon, Apr 08 2013, 11:17 am

I don't see how having two sinks in a kosher kitchen shouldn't be top priority, resale value increase or not. It is a huge quality of life issue and will IY"H make for many many fewer kashrus shaylos over the decades.

I have had kitchens with one treif sink, one kosher (meat) sink and washed my dairy stuff in the bathtub, and now a kitchen with three kosher sinks B"H. Smile

Two sinks is ideal, three sinks is luxury IMO.

Figure out what is going to make the house most enjoyable and workable for you. That matters more than resale if you are going to be there for 30+ years. If you are there for the long run, by the time you resell all of it will likely be outdated or need to be replaced anyway.

amother

Mon, Apr 08 2013, 11:20 am

All I can say as a mother I would want to help set up my child's house appropriately if I have the means.

Helping my child have a very functional kitchen means that my child and grandchildren's life on a day to day basis will be much easier and they will have less stress.

Since our money does not go with us when we leave this world, I would rather see my children benefit from it when I am living.

As much as your mother wants to do this to help you she is also doing if for herself. Do you want to deny her the enjoyment knowing she is helping her child wisely and appropriately.

If you feel real uncomfortable say yes to the double sink and skip the granite but know granite has a much longer life span then Formica. Also you can look into other durable counter top material (not as showey as granite) that is not granite but will give you many years.

Mazel Tov on your new home and raise your family well there.

Simple1

Mon, Apr 08 2013, 11:24 am

I agree about the 2 sinks. With 1 sink we had to throw out too many things that had kashrus issue.

amother

Mon, Apr 08 2013, 2:07 pm

Wow! Thank you everyone for responding! It's interesting to hear everyone's ideas, and I think it's helping me clarify my own concerns for myself.

Amother who is in awe of me for sitting on money -- B"H it's not my nisayon at this point, and B"H my salary has been fine for us until now, most of the time at least. I think part of it is that knowing that it's there has been a big deal for me, taking away a lot of the stress that comes from a typical hand-to-mouth existence. So it's been helping me even before I touched it.

Also, to that same amother -- it's not that other people will look down on us for it, that's not it at all. It's the fact that we firmly believe that we should NOT be the Joneses that other people have to try to get to. And that materialism is NOT a good thing. But how do you define materialism? If we were living in a society where everyone else is living in a mansion and buying designer clothes, it would not be materialistic to buy a given outfit -- but if we were living in a society where everyone else is living in a two-bedroom apartment and wearing very inexpensive clothes, then it would be. That's part of my value system; it may not be part of yours, and that's okay. But that's what I'm concerned about, more than anything else. I don't like the mentality of "If I can have it, why not?" I don't want to model that for my kids, and I don't want to set that precedent for myself either. There, I think that might have explaind it better. Does that make sense?

Fox -- Your praise means a lot to me. I often find myself nodding along with your posts, and I'm glad that you don't think I'm crazy on this one, at least not completely. My parents, yes, are wonderful wonderful people. I think I didn't realize how much, growing up. My dh was astonished at the fact that I had no idea how much money they had stocked away. Apparently tzedakah organizations know...and when he had checked me out for shidduchim, he found out about it. (No, that's not why he married me, at ALL!) I will say, though, that I never had expensive taste, even when my mother would encourage me to indulge in something more expensive. Again, I think that's just not my nisayon. Got plenty of others, though...

I don't know about the "value" argument, though. We plan (although I know that nothing is ever for sure) to live in this house for the rest of our lives. Obviously, things can change, but I'd say it's relatively likely, due to our situation. So redoing ANYTHING right now, just about, won't mean anything when it comes to selling our house after meah v'esrim or when we're too infirm to deal with the upkeep. Everything will have to get redone anyway by then, right? I mean, I guess the plumbing for adding another sink would be something. But most other things would only add value to the house for several decades, not longer, I'd think.

Simple1 -- I'm glad that you said that. I've been thinking about that, especially because we haven't really had company over recently because I've been a bit overworked and stressed in the past few months. Some of it has to do with "right now" specifics, but some of it has to do with the fact that yes, I find it hard to keep on top of the chores. And I know what it's like to have a milchik sink overflowing with dishes and nowhere to put the fleishig ones. So hm, that's something to think about.

Granite countertops DO make life easier. Besides the small benefit that you can put hot things down on them directly, you can kasher them for Pesach just by pouring boiling water over them. But are these benefits "worth" it? Hard to know how to figure that out when I wouldn't be paying for them, right?

There are other things on the list that she wants to add, but in general...hm. You've given me what to think about.

saw50st8

Mon, Apr 08 2013, 2:33 pm

Take the money. Having gone from a gross, falling apart kitchen to one with two sinks, two dishwashers and two ovens (with distinct sides for each in the kitchen), it makes a huge difference in ease of keeping kosher. It also means I have way more time to do other things (like spend time with my family!)

You don't have to install diamond encrusted handles, but definitely get good quality materials that will last. In the long run, its a great investment.

luvinlife

Mon, Apr 08 2013, 2:49 pm

I would definitely do those basic renovations. thank Hashem for giving you such a generous mother and use the things you put in for mitzva as well. I really don't think those things are over the top. those are things that are useful and don't attract attention and cause others to be jealous.

bbmom

Mon, Apr 08 2013, 2:59 pm

OP here's my opinion-

Firstly, the things that Fox mentioned don't actually add value in dollar amounts to a house, they make the house more sellable at optimal market value. It's ALWAYS a good idea to keep a house sellable. You never know what will happen in the future (or even tomorrow!) and more sellable means sells faster.

Second, just as the monetary help from your parents has helped you keep the simple lifestyle you desire, this gift will do the same. A renovated kitchen improves your quality of life and removes many stresses. Think of the gift as tool that will enable you to continue living the simple lifestyle. If you're worried about being too showy, there are countless styles of kitchen that are elegant and simple, even with granite countertops.

Accepting the money from your mother does not have to mean being overly materialistic.

saw50st8

Mon, Apr 08 2013, 3:20 pm

BTW if you want easy to kasher counters that aren't granite, you can get stainless steel. Stainless steel is not actually cheaper though.

peppermint

Mon, Apr 08 2013, 3:34 pm

amother wrote:

Granite countertops DO make life easier. Besides the small benefit that you can put hot things down on them directly, you can kasher them for Pesach just by pouring boiling water over them. But are these benefits "worth" it? Hard to know how to figure that out when I wouldn't be paying for them, right?

Not everyone holds that you can kasher granite counters for Pesach. Ask your Rav.

amother

Mon, Apr 08 2013, 3:42 pm

peppermint wrote:

amother wrote:

Not everyone holds that you can kasher granite counters for Pesach. Ask your Rav.

Well the Op does hold by that. She is the one purchasing the counters!

abby1776

Mon, Apr 08 2013, 3:55 pm

you should take the basic rennovations that will make it easier to run a kosher kitchen.

You are a person who works full time with small kids, why should you be struggling with one sink. Its not a question of materialism - you dont need a gold plated sink, but why should you be a martyr. Take the cleaning help, take the extra dishwasher. No one says you need to flaunt it or it needs to be fancy. You are not installing a diamond encrusted back splash. But there is no reason to suffer needlessly if you do not have to.

Isramom8

Mon, Apr 08 2013, 4:05 pm

I think you can look at it all as one special thing - buying the house and renovating it to better meet your functional needs. It's not like you'll be making it look ostentatious. You're just talking about two sinks, etc in a kosher kitchen.

A well built kitchen can serve you well for many years. Mine is 13 years old and there isn't a thing I need to fix up in it.

The sinks and granite countertops sound very functional. What is a built in? A built in what?

imasinger

Mon, Apr 08 2013, 4:19 pm

I agree with Fox 100%, and add my own compliments to you, your DH, and your family.

What is being done for the next generation? Would it make you feel any better to make a counter offer to your mother that she give you half, and put the other half in accounts for your kids?

If that needs to be a separate issue, I say take the gift and thank her. Yes, you never know what life holds, but taking advantage of a generous offer that will make your life easier here and now is just sensible. And in so doing, you are not "succumbing to crass materialism." You are practicing kibud av va'eim.

peppermint

Mon, Apr 08 2013, 4:34 pm

amother wrote:

peppermint wrote:

amother wrote:

Not everyone holds that you can kasher granite counters for Pesach. Ask your Rav.

Well the Op does hold by that. She is the one purchasing the counters!

I did not say granite can't be kashered. I was just pointing out that not everyone holds that granite can be kashered and she should ask her Rav.

I know someone who put in granite counters. Before Pesach she asked her Rav how to kasher and he said that he holds it cant be kashered and she has to cover the counters. She said if she knew she would anyway have to cover the counters for Pesach she would not have spent the extra money for granite.

Liba

Mon, Apr 08 2013, 4:39 pm

I know this is totally off topic, but my understand from those who kasher stone counters, you can only do so if there are no seams and they don't just pour boiling water, they also use heated rocks.

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