Low materialism vs. Mommy's paying for it

JoyInTheMorning

Tue, Apr 09 2013, 3:25 pm

amother wrote:

JoyInTheMorning wrote:

To the amother who wrote:

Quote:

As Jews, we are supposed to live in a nice home, with a beautiful wife, and nice dishes. There is a pasuk about that.

There's a pasuk about that? Really? Can you give me the source?

It's not a pasuk, it's a statement in the Gemara.

(1) A statement in the Gemara is very different than a pasuk.
(2) Can you give me the source?
(3) Not everything statement in the Gemara states Halacha.

I don't mean to pick, but amother's claim strikes me as untenable, taken at face value. How beautiful does one's wife have to be? Who gets to judge? How nice do one's dishes have to be? Mikasa? Lenox? Wedgewood?

What happens to all the plain Janes out there? Don't they deserve to get married?

[I'm not a plain Jane, in case you are interested, and I have a very nice set of China. But I don't consider that to be a measure of my observance of Mitzvot.]

amother

Wed, Apr 10 2013, 12:03 am

OP, let me tell you that I'm almost in the same boat. I grew up in a more "to the right" family--my parents did not have a lot of money (so that's the different part.) and I grew up with nothing extravagant. Seriously, my parents don't even have a matching dining room set--no breakfront, etc. However, I have other relatives (grandparents, etc.) who b"ah (through lots of hard work and smart investments) do. Besides for the little things--like my grandparents paying for all our expensive music lessons and summer camp, which I knew about when I was a teenager, we just didn't live extravagantly.
I always knew I had my own money--my parents were open about this (mostly my father) but I did not know how much. Every year, I got several birthday checks, etc. And chanukah time too--we always got money--my parents invested it all well for each of us. So by the time I was married (and I married relatively young) I had a bank account with close to six figures in it.
I told my husband about it shortly after we were married. We haven't taken much from it yet--I paid for graduate school without needing student loans and we do have a down payment for a house and I'm sure we'll put the money to use soon (when we figure out where we want to live long-term...) I'm so not into frills and always worry about being spoiled, etc. To my knowledge, my in-laws do not know, and honestly, at this point, I would tell them if it came up in conversation.
My sister is living a kollel lifestyle and yes, she bought a house recently with her money. It was a huge deal, but she is thrilled to have that kind of peace-of-mind.
And I totally wouldn't feel like it's a bad thing to have a practical, durable kitchen.

amother

Wed, Apr 10 2013, 12:12 am

Berachot 57B
Yes it is in the gemora....
loosely translated "Isha naa, dira naa keilim naim."

The man idealized by the rabbis is not the ascetic who shuns the world and its pleasures. It is rather the one who knows how to live within it in moderation. The world in all its fulness is a divine creation. Enjoying it is therefore a person's privilege, nay, his duty. The rabbis declared that a person is destined to give account to his Maker for all the good things his eyes beheld that he did not partake of. The rabbis commended the person who possessed "a beautiful home, a beautiful wife, fine furnishings." These put a person into "a happy frame of mind."

tzfatisha

Wed, Apr 10 2013, 5:01 am

two sinks isn't extravagant for a kosher home.. and having 2 dishwashers will pay for themselves in a year or less... (over using disposables)
and if you are planning to do a lot of hosting over the years it makes sense to spend the money on the kitchen now.. rather than later... as it will be less disruptive while u are still in the moving in stage, than to do it latter after you are settled..
get the best you/your parents can afford... without going crazy over silly details - eg plain, simple good tiles are usually cheaper and just as good as fancy designs... while good quality wood cabinets are better than the cheaper stuff which just warps and goes moldy and will need replacing sooner..
having a kitchen that works well makes a huge difference over a potchy around kitchen..
enjoy... and say 'thanks mum and dad'.. Smile

Fox

Wed, Apr 10 2013, 11:04 am

amother wrote:

Yes, but you need to put this into context of our generation's nisyonos. It can easily become an excuse to misuse the affluence with which we have been blessed.

I don't think that's the OP's problem; on the contrary, she seems to have an extraordinarily healthy and Torahdik approach to affluence. However, misuse of affluence is a huge machla of our times, and it causes untold suffering in Jewish communities.

I didn't look up the original language, but it is instructive that we use "beautiful" and "fine" in the translation. These are subjective concepts -- what is "beautiful" or "fine" to one individual may not be to another. Unfortunately, many people have elevated their standards of "beautiful" and "fine" to the point that they are unable to be happy with anything less. They are unable to appreciate the lovely wood veneer of an Ikea bookshelf because they are fixated on the all-wood custom seforim shranks they saw advertised.

The alternative to misusing one's affluence is NOT living an ascetic life. The alternative is learning to appreciate the "beautiful" and "fine" material possessions that do not raise community standards unrealistically, cause jealousy, or create a chillul Hashem.

tzfatisha wrote:

get the best you/your parents can afford... without going crazy over silly details - eg plain, simple good tiles are usually cheaper and just as good as fancy designs... while good quality wood cabinets are better than the cheaper stuff which just warps and goes moldy and will need replacing sooner..

Like any renovation project, it's important to do a lot of independent research. I recently read a analysis of kitchen cabinets that rated a particularly low-priced brand as third best for durability and functionality. The top two "winners" were from independent wood shops that only produce custom cabinets.

Sometimes, particularly with big-ticket items, what seems logical is not.

amother

Wed, Apr 10 2013, 11:16 am

Fox wrote:

The alternative to misusing one's affluence is NOT living an ascetic life. The alternative is learning to appreciate the "beautiful" and "fine" material possessions that do not raise community standards unrealistically, cause jealousy, or create a chillul Hashem.

Thanks, Fox. OP here, and that's pretty much how I feel. I don't feel deprived with my formica countertops or my Ikea bookshelves (how'd you guess?). I wouldn't be happier with more expensive ones.

But thank you to everyone for your advice. The two sinks, I think, I'll go for. Honestly, I think I'm going to have my dh talk to our rav about what is considered "luxury" and what is not. That's what we did when we were looking at houses. We could afford to buy a huge house, but would then be sacrificing tuition later on...but if we'd need tuition breaks later on, maybe we should buy the cheapest houses available...Our rav is wonderful and really talked us through it. I have a feeling he'd help my dh feel more comfortable with this whole thing.

(Please no rav bashing about this. This works for us.)

out-of-towner

Wed, Apr 10 2013, 11:26 am

amother wrote:

Fox wrote:

Beautiful! Halivai there were more people out there like you OP!

amother

Wed, Apr 10 2013, 11:38 am

JoyInTheMorning wrote:

amother wrote:

JoyInTheMorning wrote:

To the amother who wrote:

Quote:

As Jews, we are supposed to live in a nice home, with a beautiful wife, and nice dishes. There is a pasuk about that.

There's a pasuk about that? Really? Can you give me the source?

It's not a pasuk, it's a statement in the Gemara.

different amother:

The Gemara says "dira na'eh v'isha naeh v'keilim naim marchivin da'ato shel adam" Brachos 57b.
To be pedantic, harchavas had'as != "supposed to have", just that it "broadens the mind" (not sure how to translate) and is a good thing.
The Mishna in Avos also says "marbeh nechasim, marbeh da'aga" (one who increases his possessions increases his worries) so you can pick which one you prefer to hold by, or have few possessions, but make sure that the ones that you have are nice!

JoyInTheMorning

Wed, Apr 10 2013, 12:10 pm

Fox wrote:

amother wrote:

I did look up Berachot 57b. This is agadda, not halacha. There's a discussion of various things that can be signified by particular dreams, and it goes on from there. To give you some context, here is a quote of selected parts of that page from the Soncino translation:

Quote:

Three things enter the body without benefiting it: melilot, dateberries, and unripe dates ....
three things increase a man's self-esteem: a beautiful dwelling, a beautiful wife, and beautiful clothes ...
Six things are a good sign for a sick person, namely, sneezing, perspiration, open bowels, seminal
emission, sleep and a dream

Really, not halacha. Nothing says you have to have nice dishes. The Gemara's term "kelim" is translated by Soncino as clothing, but the Gemara isn't mandating nice clothing either. It's just saying that if you have nice clothing, you'll feel better about yourself.