"YOU RUIN THINGS FOR ME"

Fox

Thu, Apr 11 2013, 1:30 pm

GreenEyes26 wrote:

Fox, I respect you immensely. But this issue seems to be one of your pet peeves, and I very much disagree with you. I don't know where your vehement attitude comes from, but I do know that it's not warranted. The Torah doesn't tell us we have to live like "ascetics" after we finish paying our tuiton and our ma'aser - but that's how many, many posters would like people live...and sometimes, including even you.

I was also the "amother" that equated poverty with piousness and I firmly stand by what I said. I have seen over and over and OVER on this site lambasting of anyone who lives beyond a kollel salary. They aren't called "comfortable" or "middle class" or even "doing well". No, they are called "wealthy" and "rich" and "ostentatious" with all the venom of a 60's era hippie spitting at "The Man". Things I - and most of this country - would consider basics are "luxuries"; poverty conditions are something to aspire to. This attitude is widespread on this site and I'm not sure why.

I don't have ANY issue with humbleness and class. I don't think wealthy people should make it rain in their Prada shoes while laughing at the homeless. I do, however, think that people who work hard for their money can do whatever they see fit with it - within reason. And your parameters for "within reason" are very, very far from mine - and I think you're wrong.

I don't think wearing nice clothes you can afford is wrong. Neither is sending your kids to camp, buying takeout, eating pizza, having full-time cleaning help, building a big, beautiful home or wearing expensive jewelry. These are all things that you, Fox, seem to think are out of the norm. If you can afford it, they aren't. If you work hard, you have the right to enjoy the fruits of your labors. One should give generously and never show off - but one should also live life the way he can afford to.

I don't know what the community in Chicago is like - maybe you just know some really obnoxious rich people - but I will defend even the most gaudy to the death because if they can afford it, they can do whatever. they. darn. well. please.

It's hilariously hypocritical when people who take WIC and Medicaid and food stamps complain about "rich" people who make them feel bad. Guess who pays for your benefits, hmmm? Maybe they'd like to come home to a nice home with a good meal after working hard to keep you in health insurance and peanut butter. Takes the sting out of so many people taking advantage.

I understand that you don't consider the misuse of affluence a pressing societal problem. That's fine. I speak to many, many people, including many wealthy people, who do see it as a societal problem. I see families whose children, reared with such attitudes, have grown into shallow adults who provide little genuine nachas to their families.

I have no trouble defending why I believe it is a societal problem, and I try to demonstrate moderation not only in my views but in my lifestyle. If you believe such issues don't bear reflection, then don't reflect on them. But again, like the OP, your unwillingness to reflect seriously on the issue says more about you than me.

I am perfectly willing to debate you or anyone else on this topic, but unfortunately, I have not found a single imamother able to put away the straw man arguments long enough to say anything credible.

Where, for example, are all the posts that you claim create an unrealistic environment of ascetism? Frankly, I don't see them. Most of us, including me, definitely urge moderation in all things. 60s throwbacks? I think Freidasima and I are nearly the only regular posters who remember the 60s! BTW, virtually no one in the 60s spent longer than a year or so in kollel.

I also am unsure why you have wandered off on topics regarding the business acumen of imafathers, and why you're somehow linking various governmental benefits to the topic. What? How on earth is that relevant? Such remarks are hateful, hurtful, and demonstrate to me that, indeed, you are in favor of "raining in Prada shoes while laughing at the homeless."

Nor can I imagine where you get the impression that I, personally, believe that camp, take-out food, pizza, cleaning ladies, etc., are "out of the norm." I couldn't care less what the "norm" is -- I simply believe that we should be a lot more discerning in what we allow to become the norm.

My take on this is that you and other posters are simply responding to a stereotype, and you're reluctant to move beyond it. You seem to envision a "script" that you believe we are parroting, and your arguments don't acknowledge the actual remarks.

Trivializing a larger issue by suggesting it is a pet peeve tells me that I'm on the right track. It's a decent rhetorical device, but a somewhat transparent one. Once again, however, it demonstrates an unwillingness to reflect thoughtfully on the real issue.

amother

Thu, Apr 11 2013, 1:40 pm

amother wrote:

Quote:

Again and again, you ignore the fact that I do say that its fine for the OP to spend this kind of money if she has it, and if it makes her happy. I didn't say a word until she began ranting about how she's not particularly well off. Because that is the kind of attitude that angers people.

I think the misunderstanding here is in the individual opinions on what one considers well off or wealthy.

If we have a net income of $175K a year, and two kids, we can afford he things mentioned on this thread. Yet I don't think we're wealthy at all. We're comfortable. In my eyes, rich people make upwards of a half million a year. It seems to me that acording to all the tax cuts propositions out there, a couple earning up to $450K is still considered middle class. So you may think the OP is wealthy because she can afford more than you can, but that does not mean it is so.

If you have a net income of $175,000 per year, your gross is about $300,000 per year. That's definitely upper middle class, at least. Not "comfortable." Not "oh, we're just your ordinary folks." Less than 2% of the population of the US make as much money as you do.

Congratulations.

But that doesn't make the other 98% of people of the United States lazy so-and-sos, as another poster suggests. Nor does it make your income level less extraordinary. Take a less skewed look at the world.

Is the bolded sentence really true? I find that so hard to believe because most of the people we know seem to have higher standards of living than we do, and we live in a poor - to - lower middle class neighborhood.

Either way, we certainly don't feel rich. We are living a comfortable lifestyle. Nothing more.

amother

Thu, Apr 11 2013, 1:47 pm

amother wrote:

Quote:

It is true. This is from 2008, but I don't have time to search for a newer report:

http://www.factcheck.org/2008/.....0000/

Again, this is not intended to be critical. But your outlook is skewed. For your own sake, you need to understand that.

rosenbal

Thu, Apr 11 2013, 2:06 pm

Well, we obviously come to this forum with many different perspectives and mainly that's because we've all been conditioned differently based on our backgrounds, how we grew up etc.

2 points:

1) We should be careful to choose to live in communities that are not above our means even if we do not personally care for material things and wouldn't be affected to "keep up with the Schwartz's". There's a good chance that even if you have the most "wholesome" values based home, 1 or more of your children will have a natural tendency to material comfort, be more pulled by peer pressure etc. I'm not casting aspersions on those kids, that's the way Hashem made their individual natures, but those kids will have a REALLY hard time growing up where a sizable majority (not a small minority) of people live in a significantly higher income bracket.

The same principal would apply for someone who is moving to a more modern community or choosing a more modern school for her kids than where they are holding. The peer pressure is just TOO much for some kids and they can't be the neb with the long skirt.

OP clearly is not anywhere near the higher income level of the people around her but she can "scrimp" and make do with less (I'm not making fun here, I'm serious) but still fit in (at least at a level she's comfortable with.) The strange woman who yelled at her clearly is not living in a neighborhood that fits in at all with her financial situation and it seems that this is too much for her and her children. (Please don't tell me that poor people have no choices, she can't just move etc. I know all that and we dont' really know much about this woman at all just agree that wherever it was coming from, her behavior was not within the norm.)

2) Frum people who make 6 figures, lets say up to $200,000 (arbitrary figure here) and live in the northeast (for whatever reasons - maybe to be close to a job, extended family, educational opportunities whatever) and have several kids that they send to day school/yeshiva and are paying full tuition and paying back their student loans (which they took to go to school so that they be responsible and support their families) and are paying health care premiums and have two cars (not because they're obnoxious but to get to their jobs) etc ARE NOT RICH!! Yes, they may be making much more than the average person does but they also have more kids than the average person has, send their kids to private schools and live in a more expensive location. If you have 1 or 2 kids that you send to public school, then yes even in a more expensive location, making $150,000 is great. If you're spending $40,000-$100,000 just for tuition, money is really tight for you (can't buy those $100 kids shoes unless you're buying them on a Credit Card!) I know a professional who is right now paying close to $100,000 in tuition (school & post high school)!!! They're not CEO's or something, they're really cash strapped right now!

Frum people of higher income who choose to have many children and also send them to get a Torah education in Day school or yeshiva are in essence choosing to switch their upper middle class lifestyle to a lower middle class lifestyle I'm not making a value judgement on those who choose not to have more children because of finances (not knowing where your money is coming from is tough and stressful and parenting in a stressful situation is very hard). However, how can anybody cast aspersions on those who work hard and then because they value having (torah educated) children more than personal luxuries, totally downgrade their lifestyle but yet might have some extra money for cleaning help OR a manicure OR wardrobe upgrades OR sleepaway camp OR a vacation OR organic food OR a gym membership OR piano lessons etc and they decide to spend on some of these "extras"? Unless you're really wealthy you can't afford ALL of these things, but you choose the couple that are most important for you and that's what you spend on. And maybe your parents if they can, help you with something for the grandkids.

Right now the OP goes on 2 vacations a year becasue she's frugal (for her salary and location) during the year. That's her choice. If her family's salary doesn't take major jumps in the future, she may have to trade in her vacations for her kids summer sleepaway camp. Because she's NOT wealthy and doesn't have unlimited resources she will have to decide on what makes more sense for her family - camp or family vacations. Neither choice is right or wrong. THe only wrong choice would be to hide her finances from her kids school and get a tuition break and THEN take the vacation or do camp. Otherwise....the problem is what with her??? She really didn't sound ostentatious and as long as her kids aren't flaunting it to those who don't have...it really seems to me that we should think about my first point and that people need to be careful not to live in a community above their means. At least for the sake of their children. I for one, couldn't live in "mansion-ville" myself...sounds immature but I WOULD want what I don't have and I know that living where I live and being not rich or poor but just regular works well for me and my middos. Although paying full tuition and all that makes money tight, I still feel like I can host for shabbos, give to the community etc. I don't flaunt and I don't have cause to feel jealous.

costanza

Thu, Apr 11 2013, 4:16 pm

amother wrote:

Fox wrote:

amother wrote:

Unlike Fox, I don't believe that it is wrong to spend money you have on things you enjoy. But one should do so with the recognition and appreciation of the fact that it is outside the norm.

Amother, please reprint a post where I said it was wrong to spend money on things one enjoys.

It's a little hard to engage in thoughtful discussion when the lies start flying around.

Fox wrote:

The idea that you can pay tuition, give tzeddakah, and proceed to spend the remainder of your money however you want is absolutely treif. Not bad judgment. Not immature. Not skewed priorities. Absolutely, positively treif. Cheeseburger, ham sandwich-type treif. Any posts promoting this viewpoint should have been immediately removed by a moderator.

That hardly sounds like an endorsement that one may spend money on the things one enjoys, lest it is also your tacit endorsement of frum women enjoying lobster bisque.

Fox, I think amother/Greeneyes is right on this one.
Our community leaders and rabbis have only contributed to this problem of creating divisiveness amongst the "haves" and "have nots". We have dinner after dinner for our schools and institutions where wealthy families are honored as "parents of the year", "builders of the year" etc. While we should definitley honor those who provide financial support to our community, we are raising their lifestyle to a level where others wish to strive and perhaps are creating a bit of disdain for those who are held in such high regard solely for their financial success. Those richer families probably have a lot of stress that most of us cannot understand.
When charities have events, they publish the names and often times the amounts of funds contributed. I know MANY people who give only because they know others will see that they did. Or they will give an amount that they think is going to be looked upon favourably by others rather than what they really can afford.
On the other hand, we have tzedakkah's like the Hachnassos Kallah type organization mentioned in a recent thread (based out of NY) where the Rav endorsing it says in a promotional video that young girls getting married are entitled to jewellery so they won't be shamed at the chuppah. Having "stuff" whether or not you can afford it has tacitly been endorsed as necessary by our rebbeim.

But getting back to the original poster, you did nothing wrong. This woman is crazy. And Marina and other posters who are saddling you with being showy and insensitive are equally as crazy.

Last edited by costanza on Thu, Apr 11 2013, 4:18 pm; edited 1 time in total

Fox

Thu, Apr 11 2013, 5:24 pm

costanza wrote:

Ah, yet another new topic added to the mix.

Yes, Costanza, you are 100 percent correct. Many of our leaders have most definitely contributed to the problem of misused affluence.

In some cases, this is a result simply of naivete. A rav is asked to endorse a particular charity; honor someone at a dinner; etc., and he does not necessarily think about the "macro" effects of his decision.

In some cases, a rav may feel that his hands are tied. He may privately disagree with the values of the people involved, but financial and/or political reasons, may have little choice.

In some cases, the rav evaluates that his mispallelim will not heed his words. Those of you in yeshivish circles will recall that we have takonos regarding chassunahs. And how often are they followed? I can think of two chassunahs that I've attended in the past five years where these takonos were observed.

Finally, there are many fine rabbonim who have succumbed to this machla themselves. I've seen this a number of times, and in fact, I switched shuls when my children were young in order to avoid their being subtly influenced by the rav's family and their attitude toward affluence.

Living in a society in which affluence and comfort are common is a huge, huge nisoyon. It requires constant thought, advice, and vigilance. Despite the accusations leveled by posters with reading deficits, I'm not opposed to people owning lovely things or enjoying their prosperity. I am opposed to their doing so thoughtlessly and without advice and/or occasional soul-searching.

Fox

Thu, Apr 11 2013, 5:30 pm

amother wrote:

Fox wrote:

amother wrote:

Unlike Fox, I don't believe that it is wrong to spend money you have on things you enjoy. But one should do so with the recognition and appreciation of the fact that it is outside the norm.

Amother, please reprint a post where I said it was wrong to spend money on things one enjoys.

It's a little hard to engage in thoughtful discussion when the lies start flying around.

Fox wrote:

That hardly sounds like an endorsement that one may spend money on the things one enjoys, lest it is also your tacit endorsement of frum women enjoying lobster bisque.

So you admit that you lied? You originally claimed that I was opposed to spending money on things one enjoys. Now you are changing the story to say that I don't "sound" like I would endorse such a thing.

Again, you need to read what I've actually written rather than presenting your suppositions as fact.

However, if I understand your argument correctly, you believe that anything goes -- as long as one has the money for it. Sorry, not in my household!

amother

Thu, Apr 11 2013, 5:46 pm

Fox wrote:

amother wrote:

Fox wrote:

amother wrote:

Unlike Fox, I don't believe that it is wrong to spend money you have on things you enjoy. But one should do so with the recognition and appreciation of the fact that it is outside the norm.

Amother, please reprint a post where I said it was wrong to spend money on things one enjoys.

It's a little hard to engage in thoughtful discussion when the lies start flying around.

Fox wrote:

That hardly sounds like an endorsement that one may spend money on the things one enjoys, lest it is also your tacit endorsement of frum women enjoying lobster bisque.

You have got to be kidding.

I didn't lie. You are telling people that spending money on the things that they choose to spend money on is "treif." As treif as ham. I quoted you saying it. How DARE you accuse me of lying about it. Unless "treif" to you means "perfectly OK."

amother

Thu, Apr 11 2013, 5:47 pm

Fox wrote:

costanza wrote:

This is the crux of your argument, you should have put it in large, bold, red lettering (your welcome Smile

) and I completely agree.

The problem of course is that different people can come to different conclusions regarding what is "buying things you enjoy" vs. "showing off". It's a difficult line to draw and in this case it sounds like OP was well within the bounds of acceptability (yes, going away for yomim tovim is acceptable to me - if you disagree I'd like to know why, other than "it's expensive") and the other mother who yelled at her was way out of line.

Fox

Thu, Apr 11 2013, 6:03 pm

rosenbal wrote:

1) We should be careful to choose to live in communities that are not above our means even if we do not personally care for material things and wouldn't be affected to "keep up with the Schwartz's".

This is a great idea, but it has limitations. In the past 20 years, I have seen the standards in my community rise significantly while no one was paying attention. Camp went from being a once or twice-in-a-lifetime experience to being a necessity every year. "Shopping" went from consisting of trips to outlet malls to trips to trips to Nordstrom. "Nice" homes went from consisting of a discreet addition and beautifully decorated rooms to construction involving complete teardowns and buildings that dwarf their neighbors.

Remember the children's book If You Give a Mouse a Cookie? Well, the same thing occurs when you begin enhancing your lifestyle. The kitchen legitimately needs redoing? Well, you might as well install custom tiles from Italy -- after all, you'll be living with this kitchen for a long time. You need a new winter coat? Hey, might as well get a 100 percent camel's hair coat -- it'll last longer than a cheaper model. Planning a well-deserved vacation? Off-season flights to Florida and cheap condo rentals make it a better deal than the other options . . .

It's a slippery slope, and none of us are immune. Moreover, it even makes sense at the time!

rosenbal wrote:

Otherwise....the problem is what with her??? She really didn't sound ostentatious and as long as her kids aren't flaunting it to those who don't have...

This is really the $64,000 question. We really don't know whether the OP is living ostentatiously or not, given her community standards. Nor do we know what her kids do or say when they're out of earshot. However, the fact that someone went a little crazy and attacked her for it might mean that she needs to re-examine the issue from time to time.

Listen, for all we know, her kids made up some elaborate story that bears little resemblance to the truth. As a child, my cousin once had her entire class enthralled for weeks with the tale of an adventure that never took place. When confronted about her disregard for the truth (discovered after her mother encountered the teacher in a store and was asked about the family's trip to the Caribbean), she responded, "I wanted to make it more interesting."

It's easy to dismiss critics as simply being crazy. Especially when they act, well, crazy. But there is usually something to be learned from even the craziest critic -- if we're willing to listen.

Fox

Thu, Apr 11 2013, 6:29 pm

amother wrote:

How dare I accuse you of lying? Um, because you did.

Despite your original assertion, you cannot find a single instance in which I said that people shouldn't enjoy their material possessions.

So instead, you have substituted a different post using entirely different words that is completely unrelated to your assertion.

Yes, it is treif to spend money "however" you want. The meaning of "however" in this context means "to whatever extent or degree; not matter what." (based on Dictionary.com)

Presumably, some things an individual might choose to do with his/her disposable income would be perfectly acceptable. Others would not be acceptable. How is this related to enjoying nice possessions?

Why, amother, do you think that seriously wealthy people -- non-Jewish people, I might add -- hire "wealth counselors"? Because they realize that living without limits is not healthy for them or their children.

The Torah places plenty of limits on us, and it places limits on what we are permitted to do with our disposable income. For example, wealthy individuals are actually encouraged to spend according to their means on Shabbos and Yom Tov. The Torah also gives us rules regarding our tzeddakah priorities.

However, the answer is really much simpler, and one that I heard from a rav a number of years ago: "Yes, you are allowed to spend your money any way you want. And just as soon as it is your money, go right ahead."

So if you believe that parnosseh comes not from the Abishter but from your own efforts, be my guest -- just don't advocate it on a forum for frum women.

Last edited by Fox on Thu, Apr 11 2013, 6:44 pm; edited 1 time in total

Fox

Thu, Apr 11 2013, 6:43 pm

amother wrote:

This is the crux of your argument, you should have put it in large, bold, red lettering (your welcome Smile

Sweetie, this is what I said in my original post (and reiterated several times after). None of us have any idea whether the OP is "living large" in comparison to her community's standards; whether her children possibly exaggerated a bit; or whether the ranting woman is as crazy as a rat in a can.

And we all agreed that the ranting woman behaved completely inappropriately . . .

But some of the posts remind me of my former students, young people from the inner-city who often mixed up the Declaration of Independence with "the Bible" and similar mistaken references. I used to regularly get impassioned essays stating that, "the Bible says that all men are created equal." Um, which "Bible" would that be, exactly?

Many otherwise exemplary Yidden make a similar mistake with the free enterprise system and the Torah. Yes, you should enjoy nice things and appreciate the blessings that Hashem has bestowed on you. That's based in Torah. "It's my money so I'll do what I want," is not based in Torah, but in capitalism.

I'm in favor of both Torah and capitalism, but I don't believe in mixing the two! Wink

amother

Thu, Apr 11 2013, 7:00 pm

costanza wrote:

For good or bad, for better or for worse, this is the world in which we live.

People who are honored at school and shul dinners or at other events aren't selected because they are good people. They're selected because they will bring advertisers for journals, and donors and contributors to the cause, and THAT is the purpose of those dinners. No matter how wonderful someone is, how much they bring to the community, how much they give and give and give, they are not going to be honored unless they bring money to the table.

IOW, they're not being honored for service. They're being honored for money.

You can say its bad. Say we should be honoring people who bring things other than money to the community. But the organizations need the money, so that's not the way it works.

And as to publishing names ... there are people who do give for that reason. Because they want to be big kahunas. And playing into this silly vanity makes money for the organization. My family only gives anonymously. I suppose that people think we're cheap, and never give. At least we'll never be honored, and have to bring in big buck donors.

I don't think this plays into conspicuous consumption, though. Its simply a means to raise funds.

amother

Thu, Apr 11 2013, 7:09 pm

Fox wrote:

amother wrote:

The lady doth protest too much, methinks.

You go on and on and on about how the Torah tells people that there are limits on "what we are permitted to do with their disposable income." There, I quoted you again. Its fun! Yet when I paraphrase that very statement -- saying that you argue that the Torah forbids us from spending money on the things that make us happy -- how dare I suggest that you say that! You never said that you can't spend money however you want, if that makes you happy. You simply said that you cannot spend money however you want, perhaps because you know a lot of people who spend money on things that make them unhappy. And if anyone dare say that you said that you cannot spend money however you want, that person is a liar. Because you never said that. You said that a person cannot spend money however she wants, which is completely different.

But, of course, since we're accusing people of being liars, I think I'll accuse you. Because you are. I never claimed that you said that people shouldn't enjoy their material possessions. I said that you said that they were not permitted to spend money on whatever makes them happy. You know, that there are limits on "what we are permitted to do with their disposable income." There I go quoting you again. I'm sorry. Quoting you makes me a liar. Because you don't like owning up to what you say.