Why do we do this?

amother

Fri, May 10 2013, 10:16 am

I came across an article this morning about a frum counselor sxally abusing a kid. He told his father and the father and the man tried to work it out in bais din but it wasnt going anywhere so he took it to court and now the pple of Lakewood ostracized him and his family! Why are pple being ostracized for standing up for their children??? he tried going to beis din but it didnt work for whatever reason so he took it to court. I don't see why he gets "punished" and we "protect" the abuser?? Are we that embarrassed that things happening in rest of world happen by us so much that were willing to "protect" abusers and ostracize pple that are trying to do the right thing and perhaps protect your child from being the next victim?? What has become of us?

amother

Sun, May 12 2013, 11:27 pm

I don't think "we" protect abusers, and I don't think you can assume to have all the facts of the case. I, unfortunately, have intimate knowledge of the case. What "couldn't be worked out in beis din" was that they told him that they will drop the charges and make the whole thing go away if he admits to their Va'ad/Beis Din/Rabbonim that he did it, and goes through THEIR counseling/therapy process. However, since he vehemently denies the allegations and insists that he did not do anything, he was not willing to move forward with that plan. (Nor would I, and nor would many of the rest of us, if put in that position, I have to say.) So THEY said that they would pursue it in a legal court of law. Which we call "massering". And now he is facing many years in prison and still insists on his innocence. No one was or is protecting an abuser. People are objecting to "massering". Unfortunately I do not know if there IS a reliable, real Beis Din process to see these cases through. Forcing ppl to admit to crimes that they say they did not commit doesn't sound quite like the path to justice, to my ears...

chani8

Mon, May 13 2013, 6:57 am

amother wrote:

You're accusing a bais din of moisering??? You think their offer was so awful? I would agree it was awful for totally opposite reasons. If he was innocent and normal then he would try to compromise - accept the mandatory therapy and get off scott free. If you knew anything about molesters, you'd know that most of the time they deny vehemently. Admit that you dont know what happened. What the rabbonim offered was (criminally and unethically) generous toward that man, unless he can prove his innocence. If he is innocent, then what a tragic story, but all the more so, he should have cut his losses (of having to go to mandatory therapy).

amother

Mon, May 13 2013, 7:06 pm

chani8 wrote:

amother wrote:

I am sure that molesters deny vehemently. I am slo sure that innocent people deny vehemently. If you personally were accused and had not done it, you would deny, dny, deny until the cows come home, and try not to let yourself be intimidated into admitting something you hadn't done, and forcibly go through someone else's therapy system... Unless, of course, you know that no one really has a fair shot of proving he is innocent once he is accused of anything, and that your best bet is to go with the system, because guilty or not, it WILL get you in the end... (And no, I don't see any difference between someone who is completely innocent and someone who was accused and is completely innoocent, other than the fact that we don't know who is who. So why it is generous to let an innocent person go through therapy rather than clear his name I am not sure...)

amother

Mon, May 13 2013, 11:15 pm

He pled guilty because they would have found him guilty and sentenced him to 60 years in prison. His lawyers advised him - and have been fo years - to take a plea. And he did it now because he coffin was all but nailed shut. All I have to say is if you were guilty, would you be STUPID enough to say "no, I don't want a deal, I'll go to trial"? That is asinine (not sure how to spell that...) No one in their right mind who committed a crime would agree to face a trial and jury when offered a plea (years ago) that let him off scot-free. I just think if he were guilty he would be NUTS to have followed it through this far. He only pled guilty now because he had no choice. And I know them personally and it is a real tragedy and not nice to talk about it so let's stop.

chani8

Tue, May 14 2013, 5:13 am

amother wrote:

chani8 wrote:

amother wrote:

Therapy is not exactly painful, certainly better than prison, and nu, he could spend all his time telling his therapist about his innocence.

You're right that we can never really know for sure. Some use a lie detector test, but it isn't always accurate, because if he truly believes he did nothing wrong then maybe he'd pass the test.

The problem is that often abusers really think they did nothing wrong and/or they actually block out what they did and cant even remember it. And that is why they will sometimes deny it vehemently. Some, like the one who is running around RBS, feels adamant that he is the best thing that ever happened to those poor neglected boys. The fact that he turns it s-xual doesn't matter to him, as he feels he is just teaching them the facts of life (something that no one else will talk to the boys about.)

I understand that you don't want to believe this about the person because you know him, and that is your right.

marina

Tue, May 14 2013, 5:57 am

amother wrote:

I can't imagine pleading guilty to such a crime if I was innocent. Even if I had to spend eternity in jail and never see my kids again, I would never plead guilty just to avoid jail time.

amother

Tue, May 14 2013, 7:11 am

marina wrote:

amother wrote:

I can't imagine pleading guilty to such a crime if I was innocent. Even if I had to spend eternity in jail and never see my kids again, I would never plead guilty just to avoid jail time.

I would plead guilty to something I didn't do for my children's sake. All the facts and circumstances must be known. Are the children safe without me?

The agony of facing people who now think you are guilty is nothing compared to knowing your children are at the whim of an abuser who drinks and does drugs and is protected by the cops.

Years ago someone who was convicted of a heinous crime and spent years in prison told me a story of a dirty cop and a complicit DA. The story broke recently about this dirty cop &.a frum man who was wrongfully convicted. It was in the papers yesterday about 50 people are coming forward. This is the same cop.

The FBI knew about this cop at the time and told the family of the convicted man there was nothing they could do about it. Despite the FBI agents' words I was sceptical to my shame. I am frightened now.

Who can undo the harm of persecutors who put conviction rates above truth? I don't trust the Conviction Integrity Unit in Brooklyn da's office. I don't even know the statute of limitations for a civil suit.

amother

Fri, May 17 2013, 12:45 am

I think the scary thing here, whether you believe that he did or did not do it, is that once you are accused, you are finished. Do you see that it makes NO DIFFERENCE whether he did it or not? Once you are accused, no one will ever believe you if you insist that you didn't do it, and it is just about impossible to be exonerated in a court of law. And don't tell me that you beleive everybody accused is guilty. Because that's just not possible. It can't be that there is NEVER a kid with a vendetta against a Rebbe, a kid who is disturbed, a kid who was molested by someone else who he cannot finger, or a kid who was questioned in a way that made ppl think he was molested... I just don't believe that everyone accused is always guilty. But I don't believe you have any way of proving that you are not. And I also agree with Marina, I cannot imagine saying that I did something just to make a nightware go away when I am completely innocent. AND (and here I am sure I will get bashed) I do not know what makes someone who molested a child so different from someone who a. commited a different crime, or b. commited a different sin, or c. has a different psychological/psychiatric problem that needs addressing. I am not a child molester. I have children. I love them. I do everything in my power to protect them. BUt I do not understand why THESE people are animals and monsters and deserve to be locked up, and we speak with such venom about them, when we are able to speak so much more objectively about people with other serious problems. Someone who does this needs help and needs to be kept away from children. I don't think he is worse than someone who steals, someone who has an affair, or someone who has another mental illness. People are not MONSTERS, unless they repeatedly and willfully do this violently and do not want to be helped. Unless they plant bombs to kill people, or kidnap ppl and eat them in their basement. And furthermore (once I am being bashed already), messira is messira, and we have a Torah with halachos, and it does not say that messira is assur EXCEPT in the case of child molesters. It is assur to masser to the authorities on another Jew, no matter what the person did. I am not aware of halachic exceptions, and if there is an exception for someone you believe to be a child molester (over and ablove all other crimes) I wish someone would enlighten me.

September June

Fri, May 17 2013, 1:08 am

chani8 wrote:

Was this a recent article? A new case?

It isn't a recent case at all. The case was handled very badly by the frum community but BH things have changed a lot in the past four years and I do believe that this story would end differently had it happened today.

The boy's father did the right thing by going to the authorities and it upsets me that he was hurt by the community for doing so.

I hope the boy and his family get the closure and strength they need to continue to live their lives successfully. I also hope the man who molested the young boy is put away for a long time so that he can no longer hurt any other children.

To all the amother's saying that he isn't guilty: According to what I read the man agreed to plea guilty to the charges after 2 other witnesses came to the prosecutor with accusations against the man sentenced.
Where there's smoke there's fire.

Barbara

Fri, May 17 2013, 1:25 am

IOW, statistically, his chances of being convicted were only about 50%. Its easy to confuse a child victim, and child victims often don't want to testify. IOW, if his attorneys were telling him that a conviction was likely, its almost certain that there was a mountain of evidence against him. (I am assuming that he has private-pay lawyers, not public defenders.)

But we can assume that. A beit din apparently heard the case, and concluded that they guy was a molester. (And hey, how often does THAT happen?) However, they have no power to compel, so the guy basically said tough luck, who cares, I can do what I want. It was only then that the police were called -- too late, IMNSHO. But you, anonymous supporter of a molester, are horrified. How DARE someone report a child molester, even one who refuses to get treatment after a beit din asked him to do so.

Way to victimize the child again.

But what it really boils down to is this. Sure, there are false confessions. But in general, when someone swears, under oath, that they committed a crime -- ie, takes a guilty plea -- I pretty much believe them.

5*Mom

Fri, May 17 2013, 2:26 am

amother wrote:

And furthermore (once I am being bashed already), messira is messira, and we have a Torah with halachos, and it does not say that messira is assur EXCEPT in the case of child molesters. It is assur to masser to the authorities on another Jew, no matter what the person did. I am not aware of halachic exceptions, and if there is an exception for someone you believe to be a child molester (over and ablove all other crimes) I wish someone would enlighten me.

You are right. You are indeed ignorant of the halacha. In any and every case of a public menace--I'd call a child molester a public menace, wouldn't you?--it is permitted and even required to inform the authorities. This is not considered mesira. In many cases, a molester is considered to be a "rodef"--just a wee bit different than your average crook, yes?--and one must certainly report him to the authorities in order to stop him.

If you are truly interested in being "enlightened" as to the halachos in cases of abuse, you might want to read the 3-volumes of Rabbi Daniel Eidensohn's "Child and Domestic Abuse" which brings all the Torah sources and poskim that support the above, with the endorsement of Rav Shternbuch of the Aida HaChareidis.

People should really stop making vehement assertions about matters that they admittedly know nothing about.

5*Mom

Fri, May 17 2013, 2:28 am

Barbara wrote:

Yes and yes.

amother

Fri, May 17 2013, 2:52 am

I am not the above amother, however I do know of this case and I also do know that no BD ever concluded that he was guilty.
It was actually the very BD that originally permitted the father to inform authorities that came out against him for lying to them.
Also I know several women who's husbands were campers of this man and for some reason all his campers are quite skeptical that he was guilty.
The saddest thing is that our children end up being the worse off.
There was a time in the 80's that there were a series of "abuse" accusations in non-jewish pre-schools.
Many people were found guilty and locked up.
After years they were found to have been innocent. (yes the children who don't lie were found to have told what they thought was the truth but was'nt quite the truth I.e McMartin Pre-school scandal)
End result?
The "child abuse" accusation was completley discredited for years in certain circles so real abusers could do their "work" without fear of anyone looking into accuations against them.
Now it looks like that is slowly starting to happen in the Jewish Community
That is sad.