Mashiach and Eliyahu Hanavi

freidasima

Sat, Jun 29 2013, 3:02 pm

Both Rabbi Kellner (not Kallner, once again as you wrote above potato) and Marc Shapiro bring dozens of sources in their books.

But as you haven't read them you keep saying "no sources".

Keep on not reading the books and keep on shouting "no sources" as if, if you shout louder and louder it makes it correct.

I don't have to bring the sources. You have to go and read the books as all the sources are listed there.
You have only read the reviews, not the sources. And you call yourself serious?

How can you even begin to discuss something you haven't even read? You really think it's enough to read the blurbls and reviews.

You really aren't serious Potato. If you were, you would read the books and then if you wanted to, you could refute the sources that are brought there, source by source.

But you would rather rant and rave.

It's you who hasn't brought a single coherent argument against the sources that Rav Kellner brings in his book. BECAUSE YOU HAVENT READ IT and hence you haven't read the sources.

Your argument is rather tiring.

No one is saying that Rav Kellner's book is the only view. But it is an Orthodox view.

There are other views on a number of the ikkarim which are very different than that charedi view that you are quoting. For example those by Rav Lichtenstein and Rav Amital in their sichot about what Moshiach really is. Or Rav Mordechai Breuer on the Ikkar of the Torah being given word for word at Sinai which is what charedim believe and what he comes out against in his sforim. They also differ from Rav Kellner. And they too are Orthodox ways of viewing the ikkarim, in other words totally different than any of the things you have brought here. Are you going to say that they too are apikorsut?

Take Rav Breuer for example whose sforim all state that Hashem gave us the torah BISHLAVIM - in stages, not at one time, not dictated, over periods of decades and possibly much much longer, even centuries. All with Ruach Hakodesh, very little dictated to Moshe personally at all.

Are you going to call him an Apikores as well? His shita is quite mainstream intellectual DL in EY today.

etky

Sat, Jun 29 2013, 3:13 pm

freidasima wrote:

[b]

There is an entire hesder yeshiva and associated college where the study of tanach is founded on R' Breuer's approach. Are Yeshivat Har Etzion and Michlelet Herzog not bastions of mainstream DL thought?

etky

Sat, Jun 29 2013, 3:47 pm

freidasima wrote:

Exactly my point. But Rav Breuer's teachings about Torat hashlavim in the torah not having been given at one fell swoop goes against everything charedi hashkofo believes in when interpreting one of the Rambam's ikkarim.

Which means what? That all of Yeshivat Har Etzion is a hotbed of apikorsut?

Well, that would certainly be unwelcome news to the several thousands of DL people (of whom a large percentage are tanach teachers) due to attend the annual yimei iyun b'tanach next week at Michlelet Herzog.

Potato Kugel

Sat, Jun 29 2013, 11:41 pm

FS I really don't get you.
You staarted out by stating that one need not believe iin anything other then the Oneness of HKBH to be a "good jew".
You stated empathatically that there is no Orthodox Rabbi who would state that if one does not believe in Moshiach one is not a "Good Jew".
I brought you dozens of actual Halachoc sources that covered a span of hundreds of years that stated the opposite.
You ignored that.
Let me state it more plainly so you understand.
You made a statment.
I proved it false.
Now you have atated again and again that there are books by Prof. Kellner tthat give sources for your opinios.
I have asked you to bring a single one of them.
You have not.
Now I have stated that you cannot because the books by Kellner as well as Shapiro are attempts to re-interpet Rambam in away the Rambam has never ever been understood.
This I stated is something they themselves admit.
You have'nt denied that.
And as an aside I pointed people not to a review, but a 50 page point by point refutation of Shapiro's thesis.
Now I along with other posters have given you dozens upon dozens of sources for our positions.
With exact qoutes, exact page numbers.
You continue to refuse to give a single one.
Rather you insist I go read a book that supposedly gives the sources you refuse to give (though the author of the book in question makes no such claim, rather he admits he is attempting to re-examine traditional Judaism in a new way) and if I disagree with them I should state these sources and explain why.
Are you serious?

amother

Sun, Jun 30 2013, 1:01 am

freidasima wrote:

That is patently false. Unless the Chareidim are rejecting the gemaras position of Megillah megilla nitna that is subsequently accepted by Ramban and Chizkuni and others. Why are you making something out to be extremist and renegade that actually isn't? Who is this straw chareidi anyway?

I can finally see why people have been saying you are being divisive for its own sake.

Amother because I'm afraid to stand up to a bully who seems to twist everyone's words.

yogabird

Sun, Jun 30 2013, 3:27 am

amother wrote:

freidasima wrote:

And about this, I remeber learning that Moshe wrote down the Torah in increments, as the "storyline" unfolded.

(so what? It was shechina medaberet mitoch gerono anyways. Don't see how that would make it any less divine...)

And yeah, it was a "chareidi" school.

freidasima

Sun, Jun 30 2013, 3:35 am

Rav Breuer does not talk about Moshe writing down the torah at all but it being given over decades and possibly centuries. BIG DIFFERENCE to what the gemoro states. That is what he means about "shlavim" and "revadim" in his works. That the Torah was revealed by Hashem over a very long period of time, hence it does not contradict the shita of "J", "P" etc.. I'm not sure you are familiar with those terms.

. If you want to understand what Rav Dr. Mordechai Breuer means I would suggest that you read his sforim but as some of you ladies prefer to drip vitriol on authors of books and sforim while refusing to read their books that's like talking to a wall. Yeah well, there is a name for people like that.

Charedi rabbonim in EY have possuled Yeshivat Har etzion and all dati leumi yeshivot over and over, orally and in writing. But here you aren't differentiating between Yeshivat Har Etzion and Herzog College on the same campus. Rav Breuer was not a Ram at Har Etzion, Har Etzion teaches Gemoro like all yeshivot, not Tanach per se. Rav Breuer's teachings were taught and are still taught at Herzog College. And that has been and is possuled by charedi rabbonim in EY right and left. You are obviously unaware of that fact.

sarahd

Sun, Jun 30 2013, 4:00 am

freidasima wrote:

Talk about the pot calling the kettle black. Rolling Laughter

fromthedepths

Sun, Jun 30 2013, 7:56 am

Freidasima wrote:

Quote:

Charedi rabbonim in EY have possuled Yeshivat Har etzion and all dati leumi yeshivot over and over, orally and in writing. But here you aren't differentiating between Yeshivat Har Etzion and Herzog College on the same campus. Rav Breuer was not a Ram at Har Etzion, Har Etzion teaches Gemoro like all yeshivot, not Tanach per se. Rav Breuer's teachings were taught and are still taught at Herzog College. And that has been and is possuled by charedi rabbonim in EY right and left. You are obviously unaware of that fact.

Don't change the subject please. Let's stick to the facts. You claim that chareidi rabbanim consider Yeshivat Har Etzion a hotbed of apikorsus. I want to see an exact citation please. Because I'm finding it hard to believe.

There are certainly major disagreements. I've heard chareidim say that DL yeshivos teach Torah that is somehow not as pure because they also teach secular subjects. Whether any of us agrees or disagrees, that's a very different statement than saying that they teach apikorsus!

Several years ago, Jewish Action printed an exchange of letters between Rav Lichtenstein and Rav Aharon Feldman of Ner Yisrael (who lived in EY for many years and certainly is consisted chareidi). Their main disagreement was over Zionism. Nowhere did Rabbi Feldman imply that Rav Lichtenstein was an apikores, C"V. There was mutual respect and warmth (they knew each other as young children).

amother

Sun, Jun 30 2013, 7:56 am

I have read his books and I am a student of his students so I feel perfectly confident that what I am saying is correct and that you are misrepresenting his views for the sake of setting up a double straw man argument. I will trust his students (my teachers) over you any day. You have not given anyone any reason to believe that you having any credibility, maybe you are hoping that all of us "dogmatists" will just accept everything you say at face value. I don't know. I do know that not everyone is an expert in everything and as a psychologist you have no right to claim to be an expert in Bible, Jewish History and Jewish Philosophy. No matter how many books you have read. I will trust the actual experts, thank you. You have denigrated almost everyone in the non-academic Jewish world (and I'm not even chareidi) as not possessing the academic rigor to make judgments of religious philosophy yet we are supposed to believe your amateur perception of certain works? That logic makes me doubt your words even more.

amother

Sun, Jun 30 2013, 8:00 am

freidasima wrote:

I didn't even see this one. Wow you are so condescending. I have studied biblical criticism tyvm and I am very familiar with r. Breuers explication of the documentary hypothesis. It is not as you state. Just stop it already. So sad that someone with such intelligence can't think of anything better to do that make up stuff on the Internet for the sake of argument.

freidasima

Sun, Jun 30 2013, 8:16 am

I don't argue with amothers. If you don't have the courage to use your real name you don't exist.

If anyone thinks that charedi Rabbonim support Rav Breuer's statements of Torah being given in shlavim over a long period of time, but all with Ruach hakodesh post your sources.

Rav Lichtenstein and Rav Amital a"l support teaching Rav Breuer's teachings in Herzog College. Herzog and Har Etzion are inseparable as the program is joint. Study in Herzog while doing hesder in Har Etzion. If you want to be precise the charedi rabbonim arguments usually focused on the Hesder program of Yeshivat Har Etzion which encouraged students to simultaneously study in Herzog.

Some of you have a real problem dealing with the fact that large parts of the MO and the DL leumi worlds do not hold like the charedim do in many things.

Charedim are also very good at historical revisionism as we all know from the brouhaha over the publication and subsequent demand to pull off the shelves the book "the making of a godol". Same goes for the charedi revisionist introduction to the latest editions of "em habonim smeicha" in which they desperately try to prove that the author "really wasn't zionist" and "never turned his back on antizionism".

Yeah well.

Rav Breuer, who my husband, I and many of our good friends knew well, most certainly DID teach and hold that the torah was given over a long period of time, all with Ruach Hakodesh. He specifically used the terms "Bishlavim" and explained that he was not talking about only over the lifetime of Moshe Rabbeinu, and he truly believed that his way of interpretation was the bridge between bible criticism and religious belief because he emphasized over and over that it was all done through direct Ruach Hakodesh (unlike what Bible critics believe of course).

Those of you who now want to "Rewrite" Rav Breuer? It's so absolutely charedi....I'm not at all surprised nor dismayed. We are all so used to this trend not only to rewrite history, but to rewrite personal biographies and beliefs to make them fit a charedi hashkofo. We even had threads on this here where Charedi rabbonim's writings were posted where they said outright that if someone in the past did or said something that may have been ok then but are against today's charedi beliefs and hashkofos, it is important and fine to rewrite the past to suit the present.

Which is just what you are doing now with Rav Mordechai Breuer's teachings.

Unlike you amother I'm not exhorting you like some kind of preacher to "stop it already". Because you won't stop no matter what....actually, for some of us. it's really fascinating to see how far some of you are going to try and rewrite history, biographies or philosophies of certain Frum Jews, rabbonim, whose writings or beliefs don't fit your neat little world.

PinkFridge

Sun, Jun 30 2013, 8:44 am

Like Yoga, I've heard of the concept of stages, ruach hakodesh, etc. But centuries?
Also, I appreciate that you would like the playing field leveled in the sense that if we're going to discuss/dispute something we should read some recommended books and sources. (And while you've been passionate and exasperated I won't call you a bully.) But I got the reference to J, P. etc. You'll have to forgive those of us who haven't learned Bible criticism nor plan to. I think it is possible to have a sufficient understanding of ikrim (not THE ikrim, but yesodos to living a Torah life) without it.

freidasima

Sun, Jun 30 2013, 9:00 am

Pink it is definitely worth reading Rav Breuer's books. There are parts of the bible which he believes is definitely from long past Moshe's death, particularly Dvorim, mishneh torah. And there are certainly parts of the tanach which were given in Ruach hakodesh many many centuries after matan torah. No one HAS to read his sforim, they were brought as an example of something which is taught in mainstream DL institutions and held in the mainstream DL world (as opposed to the comment that Rav Kellner is not mainstrem MO/DL) and that is categorically and diametrically different than the charedi view of the ikkarim.

From the Depths, I was not talking about rav Feldman, you brought him up, I never mentioned him. I was referring for example to Rav Schach z"l, Rav Eliashiv z"l, and Rav Kanievsky's well known and vocal opposition to Har Etzion and Herzog as teaching apikorsus. Their statements on this topic over the past 20-30 years are well known and documented all over the charedi press in EY. If you want precise quotes you will have to go into Yated's (in Hebrew)'s database archives.