At my wits end-Long vent, ADVICE Please

smilethere

Thu, Jul 04 2013, 5:36 am

BH for healthy problems...
I have 4 and 5 year old boys and a 2 year old girl.

Both my husband and I come from families that are extremely active, wild and imaginative, so I don't really worry where they are getting it from.

My children do non-stop crazy, destructive things, and I have no idea how to stop them.
I try to be with them as much as possible but there will be some times that I need to get dressed, use the bathroom etc or am still in bed in the mornings, as whatever I try they get up at dawn.

They should be old enough to know better but yet they cannot control themself. I've come down on shabbos morning to knives cutting challah, tables and counters, to permanent markers all over my house.
Regular occurences are tubs of cream all over the place.

I try to keep as much as possible locked away. When they were younger there were locks on the bathroom door, on every cabinet etc.

My problem is that they should be old enough to know better. It is my oldest who comes up with the ideas, and the others follow. He just cannot control himself as these things are too tempting.

If there is nothing concrete to do, he will scrape the walls, and pull wires, but still destroy.

This morning I came down to 2 empty cans of paint, 3 children covered, one entire kitchen painted plus the morning room floor. It is oil paint and h-ll to get off. (I did not know the painter left these in the cupboard I thought he took them home overnight, but still they managed to open the lids)
I just cried.

I am quite limited in what I can punish them. Withold treats? They don't care. Make them clean up? It would be harder to clean them afterwards.

Please give me some tips, I can't face going home now and cleaning up the place (although did quite a bit this morning)

imasinger

Thu, Jul 04 2013, 6:18 am

Oy, I think I would have cried, too.

Couldn't the painter have used latex based paint, with little kids in the house?

If your ODS has challenges with impulse control, you might want to consider getting him evaluated. Does he have difficulty (more than other boys his age) keeping track of his belongings, paying attention for long periods of time, sticking with a plan?

Regardless, you can help shape his behavior. Here's how.

1. Make a list with the kids of activities that are permitted when you are busy. Use pictures for the non readers. Post the list.

2. Make a second list of rewarding and fun activities that they can earn by following the first list when your back is turned.

3. Be sure to praise any compliance, even if you were not looking for such a short time that hey didn't happen to think up any mischief.

4. Keep track, with stickers or tokens, for their positive progress. Keep calm about the inevitable slip ups, as adult annoyance can be rewarding to some kids. Just use logical consequences and time outs, but save your emotional oomph for yhe good stuff.

May they grow to be creative, enthusiastic adults, who take initiative in all the best ways.

FranticFrummie

Thu, Jul 04 2013, 6:23 am

Wow, what a handful!

I really do think that they are too young to "know better". They might get the words, but they're brains can't possibly process that when there is a strong impulse going on. Impulse control is a lifelong battle, and they're still so little.

1. One of the parents MUST be up before the kids! I know that's hard, but at this age it's imperative.

2. Lock up all the cabinets, not with baby locks. Too easy to figure out. I'm talking padlocks on the outsides of the cupboards, a lock on the fridge and freezer, all of it. If they ask you "why", don't say that it's because they've been bad, tell them that "It's to keep you safe".

3. Your kids seem to be the "sensory seeking" type, needing lots of things to touch, feel, smell, chew on, etc. Look into buying toys that offer lots of sensory input. Google "sensory toys" and you'll get tons of ideas, in all price ranges. They will save your sanity! A major plus is that these toys are designed to stand up to extremely rough play, and will last for years to come. (I have a sensory kid with poor impulse control, so I speak from experience.)

4. For more safety advice, lie on the floor and "think like a bored preschooler". Look around, and imagine what would be fun to destroy. That's the first step to learning how to get all the "attractive hazards" out of your children's reach.

5. Daven for patience, you're going to need it!

FranticFrummie

Thu, Jul 04 2013, 6:29 am

imasinger wrote:

I'm not sure that charts and stickers will work here. With sensory seeking kids, the forbidden activity is a much bigger reward. It stimulates all of the parts of their brain that releases endorphins. Kids can be grounded for weeks, but in their heads they'll be saying "Yeah, but it was SO worth it!"

My advice is to find them lots of sensory input toys and safe activities that will give them the stimulation they crave, without the potential for property damage. Instead of trying to get rid of the behavior, channel it into something manageable and redirect it into something the OP can live with.

A sand and water table, shaving cream on a cookie sheet, popping the air bubbles that come in mailed packages, all of these are good distractions from peeling off the wallpaper.

Shana_H

Thu, Jul 04 2013, 6:35 am

Sounds like you've got your hands full, you say that when they were little you did x, y & z, I hate to break it to you but 5, 4 & 2 are still little! My kids were once 5, 4, 3, 2 & 4 months old, they're teenagers now, looking back I don't know how I survived! I do know I rode my kids like they were wild horses, I didn't rest for a second, I was firm, I was tough, I was the b**** from hell, they didn't like me very much, but now I've got five fabulous teenagers that I am so proud of, children are not born with instructions, bringing home a newborn is not like bringing home a new coffee pot! Dear OP, Everything and I mean everything needs to be locked up, kitchen knives for sure need to be padlocked in a tool chest kind of thingie, and cans of paint need to be stored in a locked garage or shed. And never ever leave the kids alone for a monent, I never showered when I was home alone, I pooped with the bathroom door open in full sight of the living room where they were playing, my life was not my own till my youngest went to school!

imasinger

Thu, Jul 04 2013, 6:36 am

FranticFrummie wrote:

imasinger wrote:

I agree that sensory seeking kids will need safe activities. The things you suggest should be either on the first list, if they can be done unsupervised, or the second list, to be engaged in with supervision on a regular basis.

smilethere

Thu, Jul 04 2013, 6:39 am

OY, I get it...

I don't think he needs to be evaluated. I've spoken to the school numerous times, they say he is fine just doesn't have a long attention span. He is bli ayin hora, brilliant and very quick picks up everything and then is bored...

Does all your advice mean that I can't put on make up in the mornings? I lock myself in the bedroom every morning for 2-5 min to get dressed. I need to feel like a mentsh the rest of the day...

Sometimes I just want to plonk my kids in front of a tv, to keep them occupied.

Will look into sensory toys, thanks!

FranticFrummie

Thu, Jul 04 2013, 6:51 am

smilethere wrote:

Keep the bathroom door open, kids will know that it's the best time to cause mayhem. They may be little, but they're not stupid!

If the oldest is bored in school, the teacher needs to have extra things for him to do while the others catch up. An extra credit work sheet in his favorite subject, free time reading a book, or a coloring page. He needs to keep busy! I wouldn't worry about having him evaluated unless you see a real problem in the next year or two. If he has ADHD, he won't be properly diagnosed until he's at least 6 or 7 anyway.

I know that a lot of parents don't like it, but sometimes you just have to cave in and put on an Uncle Moishe CD so you can get a little break. Shalom Sesame is a good series, too.

Push back the furniture, and arrange pillows and cushions on the floor. Have the kids play "Hot Lava", where they have to get around without touching the floor. That will keep them busy for quite a long time, and they can burn off a lot of energy. I LOVED that game when I was a kid!

Do you have a Petco or PetSmart near you? When it was cold and rainy, and DD was bored out of her mind, we'd take her to Petco. The owners knew us, and they let her run all over the store (we were right behind her the whole time). She could touch all the pet toys, squeak the squeakers, squeeze the stuffies, bounce the balls, and then go watch the fish in the tanks. If they had kittens and puppies, that was even better. An hour of that was really good for her to get stimulation, and then calm down with the fish at the end. It's still one of her favorite places to go.

smilethere

Thu, Jul 04 2013, 6:52 am

Shana_H wrote:

Yup SmileThere, I'm afraid it does! Make-up, getting dressed, locking the bedroom door for 3 minutes to do whatever would have spelled DISASTER with my kids! In the morning I'd give my face a quick wash, throw on a light dress, a snood and I'd be done, as for t.v, there's nothing wrong with an hour a day of children's programming whilst you sit on the sofa with a well deserved cup of tea :-)

I don't have a tv nor a computer. I don't want my children watch dvd's. That's my hashkafic view but it would be easier to keep them busy...
At least in the summer (when it's not raining) we have parks...

FranticFrummie

Thu, Jul 04 2013, 6:54 am

smilethere wrote:

Shana_H wrote:

Didn't see this while I was posting. No TV is a great choice to make, in many ways I regret that I eventually gave in. It takes a lot of willpower to resist the urge to use the electronic babysitter! You have my respect. Very Happy

smilethere

Thu, Jul 04 2013, 6:58 am

[quote="FranticFrummie"]

smilethere wrote:

OY, I get it...

If the oldest is bored in school, the teacher needs to have extra things for him to do while the others catch up. An extra credit work sheet in his favorite subject, free time reading a book, or a coloring page. He needs to keep busy! I wouldn't worry about having him evaluated unless you see a real problem in the next year or two. If he has ADHD, he won't be properly diagnosed until he's at least 6 or 7 anyway.

BH they are in a really supportive school, and his teacher gives him extra work or writing to do...

Shana_H

Thu, Jul 04 2013, 7:07 am

I understand your point of view, no t.v, no computer, no dvd's BUT I also know the emotional strain a mother can go thru when her children are Absolutely off the wall from the break of dawn till nightfall! When my kids were little we lived in an inclosed town house complex, it had a playground and a huge inground swimming pool and inground kiddy pool for the summer months, it was hard, I had to be very organized, but we lived at the pool all summer long and at the playground most of the Spring and the Autumn! You've gotta keep your guys busy, I'm sorry for the following quote but "Idle hands are the tools of the Devil!"

FranticFrummie

Thu, Jul 04 2013, 7:13 am

[quote="smilethere"]

FranticFrummie wrote:

smilethere wrote:

BH they are in a really supportive school, and his teacher gives him extra work or writing to do...

That is wonderful to hear! Good schools are like finding 5 carat diamonds. A friend of mine has 3 children, and all of them qualify for Mensa. She has the hardest time finding schools that can handle her kids, and they're GOOD kids! They don't cause trouble, they're just so far above the curriculum it's not even funny. No one seems to know what to do with them. If her kids had severe disabilities she could place them easily, but super smart kids are much harder to deal with, apparently.

FranticFrummie

Thu, Jul 04 2013, 7:35 am

Shana_H wrote:

Dear F.F, Hi Happy 4th of July, Can your friend's kids be skipped a couple grades, or can the workbooks from the upper grades be given to them in their classroom?

Her kids are still developmentally needing to be with kids their own age, and the Australian school system they live in doesn't encourage grade skipping. They'd rather have the girls just sit quietly and be bored. She has to push the teachers to give them work that's harder than the rest of the class, and she has them in all kinds of enrichment programs and after school stuff. She's not one of those crazy "Tiger Moms", her kids love all the activities and they have the choice to not do extra if they feel it's too much.

Sorry OP, got off track of your issue. I didn't mean to hijack your thread! It just got me thinking about Shellie and her situation.

m in Israel

Thu, Jul 04 2013, 9:53 am

I think you've gotten some great advice, and I think FranticFrummie really summed it up. I have 4 boys in a row and 3 of them are like that (the other is a bit calmer), and you cannot leave them alone for a SECOND until they are much older. If you want to do your make up for 3 minutes in the bathroom in the morning, either set your alarm to get up before them or do it while your husband keeps an eye on them, if possible. My kids also wake at the crack of dawn, no matter how early/ late they go to bed. My almost 7 year old is up by about 5 every morning!! I was always a night owl and hated getting up early -- LOL on me! Until very recently I shlepped myself out of bed the second I heard him waking up. B"H within the past year he has developed a bit more impulse control, and I have been able to let him play by himself a bit in the morning (he knows what toys he is allowed). It doesn't usually last too long, because he comes into ask me if he can do x, y, z -- but the fact that he has finally begun to ask first is a big step, and has given me a bit more wiggle room (my 4 year old sleeps a bit later in the morning, BH -- doesn't wake up till around 6!)

Take a deep breath and remember that gam zeh ya'aver -- B"H they do grow up! Good luck!

oliveoil

Thu, Jul 04 2013, 10:12 am

smilethere wrote:

Lock them in with you while you get dressed/put on make up. Or do it before they wake up.