ami article about poverty in israel

zigi

Thu, Jul 18 2013, 8:53 am

they spoke to a spokesperson who ran yad eliezer. she said that that there is no safety net like there is in the states. you still have to pay 150 a month for health care and that some people are barely making it.

is this true? why do people encourage aliyah for pple in chutz le'artez if they might be worse off? I know that she was trying to paint a picture so that people will donate. but I really do want to know what its like in ereztz yisroel.

its ami living issue 126

edited b/c I wrote from memory not ezer mizion but yad eliezer

Last edited by zigi on Thu, Jul 18 2013, 11:30 am; edited 1 time in total

m in Israel

Thu, Jul 18 2013, 9:08 am

I didn't read the article in question. As far as the points you raised: It is true there is no "safety net" in Israel like their is in the states as far as basics for the very poor. There is no "welfare", food stamps, WIC, etc. to provide basic food. There is no free health insurance such as Medicaid (although the premiums for the mandatory health insurance system are determined on a sliding scale -- it is cheaper if you are poorer). There is nothing similar to section 8 to help in housing (although there are property tax reductions for low income families).

As far as your second point, I don't understand it at all. I have NEVER heard of anyone encouraging someone to make Aliyah for financial gain! There are some people who find themselves better off here because yeshiva tuition is cheaper and the health insurance is less then most private plans in the U.S. But salaries tend to be much less here, too. We are definitely much worse off financially here then we were in the U.S. But we made Aliyah for reasons that had nothing to do with finance! B"H we never used government programs in the U.S., so that wasn't a factor for us, but even regular salaries vs. cost of living we are much tighter here. (I also had excellent health insurance as part of my compensation for my job in the U.S., so we actually pay significantly more for healthcare here.) Of course in the U.S. I wasn't getting a mitzvah for every daled amos I walked. . . Wink

shabbatiscoming

Thu, Jul 18 2013, 9:33 am

zigi wrote:

they spoke to a spokesperson who ran ezer mizion. she said that that there is no safety net like there is in the states. you still have to pay 150 a month for health care and that some people are barely making it.

is this true? why do people encourage aliyah for pple in chutz le'artez if they might be worse off? I know that she was trying to paint a picture so that people will donate. but I really do want to know what its like in ereztz yisroel.

In the scheme of things, 150 SHEKELS is not that much money for health insurance. How much do people pay outside of Israel? I think much much more.
Yes, there are some people who are barely making it, but there are also people who are making it nicely. I know many people where I live who are doing just fine.

The article you are talking about is most definitely a generalization that can not be made for every single household in israel. There are poor people and there are rich people and there are people in the middle.

Please do not think that everyone living in Israelis living in poverty because it just isnt so.

Marion

Thu, Jul 18 2013, 9:48 am

If I think about what we'd be paying (in co-pays, tuition, and housing) we'd never be able to afford it, even on double the salary where I came from. We have 4 boys. We have subsidized daycare on a sliding scale. Can you imagine the day school tuitions for four boys? We pay NOTHING (OK, about 1000NIS/year for the school aged kids, 500NIS for the gan aged kid) in tuition. 2500NIS compared to $25,000. How many I don't think we'd make 10 times more in Toronto. And I'm comparing to a place with co-pays in socialized medicine intentionally, not to a place where I have no idea what it costs. Can you get daycare for $150/month?

Jewishmom8

Thu, Jul 18 2013, 11:18 am

zigi wrote:

I think he is totally right
if anything I think that people who try to get others to make aliya paint way to rosey of a picture. very often I think they do people a real disservice.
they make it look like life would be so much easier! so much better!
there is a reason where I live in almost every school the kupa sends sandwiches for the families who cant afford to bring.

zigi

Thu, Jul 18 2013, 11:28 am

I do know that there are middle class rich and poor in ey too. I was just thinking about a poor family in usa. you can get subsidized housing. medicaid, food stamps. and even welfare. also the tuition that people pay is pretty low if you are chassidish.

I guess moving to ey is for someone who is middle class in usa and not making it and wants a certain kind of school for their child.

willow it was in ami living july 3

Tova

Thu, Jul 18 2013, 11:39 am

I read the article, they were absolutely not saying that most people live in poverty in E"Y! Not sure where people got that impression. They were just saying that people who are poor are worse off and don't have the social benefits in place in the US.

Sometimes it IS hard to know the facts when reading articles that are "advertorials" and/or obviously motivating people to give (which they should if they can). It paints a really dire picture.

As to the "better off here or there" argument, this is just my thoughts/impressions from speaking to many people. You are not likely to have a "rags to riches" or "riches to rags" situation by moving from E"Y to US or from US to E"Y. If you are regular middle class here in the US - can pay for necessities, some splurges but nothing over the top - you will probably be the same there. Lower salaries and tuition and probably similar overall financial situation. If I move to E"Y it would not at all be for financial reasons, in fact I'd hope that I wouldn't be worse off financially in my set of circumstances.

JAWSCIENCE

Thu, Jul 18 2013, 11:58 am

m in Israel wrote:

As far as your second point, I don't understand it at all. I have NEVER heard of anyone encouraging someone to make Aliyah for financial gain! There are some people who find themselves better off here because yeshiva tuition is cheaper and the health insurance is less then most private plans in the U.S. But salaries tend to be much less here, too. We are definitely much worse off financially here then we were in the U.S. But we made Aliyah for reasons that had nothing to do with finance! B"H we never used government programs in the U.S., so that wasn't a factor for us, but even regular salaries vs. cost of living we are much tighter here. (I also had excellent health insurance as part of my compensation for my job in the U.S., so we actually pay significantly more for healthcare here.) Of course in the U.S. I wasn't getting a mitzvah for every daled amos I walked. . . Wink

I applaud you for bringing up that even without tuition things can be tight.

There are a lot of posts on here from people living in Israel saying "tuition is killing you? move here and you will be so much better off financially" and completely ignoring the fact that many posters would have a difficult time finding employment and affordable housing. I get that tuition is free in Israel and for many that can make a big difference but the glib assumption that all problems are solved by moving to Israel and not having tuition is 1) irresponsible as it is not necessarily true. You still have all your other expenses even without tuition and now you need to find a new job and have no family to help you with emergency babysitting 2) really irritating and not helpful to posters who cannot move because their older parents who need care live here. We cannot shove aside mitzvas kibud av v'em and dump our parents in state run nursing homes to fulfill the mitzvah of living in EY 3)takes focus away from trying to find workable solutions to a very real issue

I'm all for aliyah - when it is thought out and not simply pushed on others without mentioning the difficulties.

amother

Thu, Jul 18 2013, 12:11 pm

israel is extremely expensive! I'm not comparing it the states, I have no idea what it's like there, but first off, food here is an absolute fortune! tuna is now 8 shekel, a can of regular starkist tuna in water. gas is ridiculous. absolutely utterly ridiculous. in terms of bills. we pay through the roof for water, electricity and gas. arnona which is land tax is also very expensive. can be over 10,000 shekel a year. if you make over a certain amount, you get no discount. we pay over 400 shekel a month in health insurance. a family of 6. we pay for shools for the girls, not a ton, 100 shekel a month per child, and 500 shekel a month for boys cheder per child. everyone that I speak to with over 3 children needs a minimum of 15000 shekel a month to live here. food, bills, schools, insurances, car, gas, rent/mortgage. I'm going anon because we have some flaming fanatics here who don't like to say it like it is, the real truth about israel and how expensive it is. most people don't live on tiny yeshuvim clipping coupons.

elisheva25

Thu, Jul 18 2013, 12:20 pm

I read the article in aMI. I thought the kind of poverty it was describing was heart breaking. Like mothers not having enough food to make their kids Normal supper. Of course it's not everybody, but it's enough that even some people are struggling like that.Forget about comparing it to the US.The issue is that there really doesn't seem to be a solution at least in this article to.solve the problem .It seems that large kollel families are really struggling...even with putting basics on the table.

amother

Thu, Jul 18 2013, 12:32 pm

amother wrote:

Re arnona, I live in an expensive part of Jerusalem, have 100+ square meters and pay 8,000 shekel in arnona. If you are paying 10,000 shekel in arnona, you must have a huge place in an expensive area. But even so, compared to my parents who were paying $15,000+ a year in property tax in America, 8,000 shekel is a joke.

My father who moved to Israel from America (after owning a home in America for 30 yrs) says electricity is pretty comparable in price.

In terms of tuition, girls bais yaakov is free. I don't have boys in school yet so I don't know what that is. Also school is free from age 3 which also makes a big difference.

I'm with the others, I have no idea how we would make it financially in America. B"H we do fine here.

Marion

Thu, Jul 18 2013, 1:00 pm

amother wrote:

Who buys tuna at 8NIS/can? Not I. And you must be shopping in a much more expensive location than I am. Gas is ridiculous; not everyone owns a car and that's one of the primary reasons why. I don't pay through the roof for gas, water, or electricity. Arnona depends on location. You pay over 400NIS/month in heath insurance? Really? Because I pay 213.50 for a family of 6, for the highest kupah level. Or are you including meds and co-pays in there? B"H we're generally healthy and don't have to see too many specialists. I have 4 kids and I don't ever hope to see the other side of 10,000NIS/month, never mind 15K.

It's true, if you try to live like an American in Israel you will be poor. If you try to live like an Israeli you have a better chance of hitting middle class. (That's not to say there are no poor Israelis, just saying, if you're comparing America and Israel, are you trying to live in Israel like you would in America? Because no, you can't.)

amother

Thu, Jul 18 2013, 1:14 pm

I will be the voice of dissent here. I was a kallah who donated $1500 to Yad Eliezer for another wedding to be made on the day of my wedding, and after reading the Ami article I was fuming that I donated my hard-earned money. Let me tell you why:

The U.S. 'safety net' does not apply to everyone - I work hard and pay taxes and try not to take money from the government if I don't have to. I'm very far from rich, or even comfortably paying my bills.

Health insurance is only for children and pregnant women, you have to be really poor for the whole family to be eligible. 150 shekel=$42. I pay approximately 8 times that for each my husband and myself.

Fertility treatments in Israel are practically free. I paid $14,000 - $16,000 to conceive my child, with some assistance from Bonei Olam.

I do receive WIC.

I am not eligible for housing assistance; I rent and am hoping that in a few years we will be able to save up for a house. Most Israelis that I know of receive apartments from their parents when they get married.

Tuition - I'm chassidish, it's not free, and I pay the discounted rate of approximately $300/month per child. How much do you pay again in Israel? Oh right, nothing.

I could go on and on. The interviewee in the article said that there is so much poverty in Israel because many of the programs are tied into employment. I have news for you: they're not giving out money for free in the U.S. either. If we have money it's because we work hard to earn it. Actually, Israel is the socialist country where so much is given for free.

I sincerely hope that my hard-earned money went to someone who really needed it, but I am fuming at the thought that it might have gone to someone who doesn’t have money simply because they don’t want to work.

I remember an Israeli meshulach once came to my parents’ house and told my mother he needs money to buy an apartment for the kid he was marrying off. My mother answered, “I’m 44 and I still rent. I’d like to buy an apartment, too.”

anon because I don’t want people who know me to know about the infertility.

self-actualization

Thu, Jul 18 2013, 1:29 pm

Don't fume about having given tzedakah.

The mitzvah of maaser is on the giver (and is unrelated to the receiver). One of the basic "reasons" behind the mitzvah is that you then recognize that the money is not yours, really it's all Hashem's and you are but a conduit. The same G-d that gave you $16,000 to spend on fertility treatments also gave the $1500 to Yad Eliezer ... I work hard and so does my husband but at the end of the day we all just need to realize that we are dependent on the Almighty L-rd ...