ami article about poverty in israel

Tova

Fri, Jul 19 2013, 10:17 am

Tamiri wrote:

Tova wrote:

We've established that Israel has great low cost medical care. How does that help families put food on their table. Sometimes the lack of income among the truly poor is not their fault (parents too sick to work, etc.)

Tova. Many people here simply don't work. I know it sounds impossible, but it's true. Others, earning minimum wage... it's not a living wage. You can't live off it. However, and this is the point: they still have medical care. I don't know if that helps if you are hungry, but... they have it.

Tamiri, am I naive? I canNOT believe that there are families in Israel, Yiddishe mommas and tattahs (I NEVER use Yiddish words but it seemed to fit) that would let their children's physical/emotional health go to waste to the point that they are one of those families addressed in the article who depend on the food from the tzeddakah organization if they could just work to fill their children's tummies.

It's odd to me that I as an American who was moved by the article about the poverty that exists in E"Y has to make a case to ISRAELI's that this exists. But...but...but...you don't pay for medical copays!

amother

Fri, Jul 19 2013, 10:26 am

amother wrote:

How did you do this?

I am not this amother, but what do you mean how did she do this? I imagine she is NOT in israel, but in the states where you pay through the roof for IF treatments.

But I just want to clear this up. Everyone write that fertility treatments in Israel are practically free and I am going to disagree. It really depends. I did a cycle last year with injections and a high dosage. It came close to 2000 shekels in a month. That is a BIG amount of our take home salary. So, its not nearly free, just a lot less than 14k.[/quote]

I am the original amother. How I paid, how it came out to so much money, what's the question? It was very expensive because in the U.S. we actually pay for things ourselves. I paid by taking money out of savings, getting a loan from Bonei Olam, and we are currently working on scraping together the money to repay our loans every month.

shabbatiscoming, 2000 shekels comes out to approximately $540. Not to minimize it, but compared to what I had to pay that is pennies. My number of $16000 does not include the cost of insurance, which was approximately $400/month for me alone.[/quote]I realize that, BUT you are comparing dollars with shekel amounts. Thats not fair. If you made 7k shekels a month and had to use 2 thousand of them for medication, thats a lot. Thats all I was saying. It is far from free, thats all.
Does that make more sense? You can not compare or convert shekel amounts to dollars. It will not make sense at all.
I was not making light of the costs of IF treatments outside of israel at all, I was just showing that it is not near free either. We are making shekels and paying shekels (and the amount that I stated was already on the medical basic discount)[/quote]

You're right, and that is why I inserted that I'm not trying to minimize what you paid. This was just one part of my overall point.[/quote]
Which Kuppa were you on? Which doctor did you go to? I just came and want to start treatments I went to the Meuchedet clinic and they said they don't even do fertility treatments. My Hebrew is bad so I probably missed a lot of what the secretary was saying.

shabbatiscoming

Fri, Jul 19 2013, 10:28 am

amother wrote:

How did you do this?

I am the original amother. How I paid, how it came out to so much money, what's the question? It was very expensive because in the U.S. we actually pay for things ourselves. I paid by taking money out of savings, getting a loan from Bonei Olam, and we are currently working on scraping together the money to repay our loans every month.

shabbatiscoming, 2000 shekels comes out to approximately $540. Not to minimize it, but compared to what I had to pay that is pennies. My number of $16000 does not include the cost of insurance, which was approximately $400/month for me alone.[/quote]I realize that, BUT you are comparing dollars with shekel amounts. Thats not fair. If you made 7k shekels a month and had to use 2 thousand of them for medication, thats a lot. Thats all I was saying. It is far from free, thats all.
Does that make more sense? You can not compare or convert shekel amounts to dollars. It will not make sense at all.
I was not making light of the costs of IF treatments outside of israel at all, I was just showing that it is not near free either. We are making shekels and paying shekels (and the amount that I stated was already on the medical basic discount)[/quote]

You're right, and that is why I inserted that I'm not trying to minimize what you paid. This was just one part of my overall point.[/quote]
Which Kuppa were you on? Which doctor did you go to? I just came and want to start treatments I went to the Meuchedet clinic and they said they don't even do fertility treatments. My Hebrew is bad so I probably missed a lot of what the secretary was saying.[/quote]

I am sure that Meuhedet DOES fertility treatments, but I am on macabi and have been very blessed with good doctors and treatments for infertility. You can PM if you would like to find out more (or just ask here Smile

)

Marion

Fri, Jul 19 2013, 11:21 am

shabbatiscoming wrote:

amother wrote:

How did you do this?

I realize that, BUT you are comparing dollars with shekel amounts. Thats not fair. If you made 7k shekels a month and had to use 2 thousand of them for medication, thats a lot. Thats all I was saying. It is far from free, thats all.
Does that make more sense? You can not compare or convert shekel amounts to dollars. It will not make sense at all.
I was not making light of the costs of IF treatments outside of israel at all, I was just showing that it is not near free either. We are making shekels and paying shekels (and the amount that I stated was already on the medical basic discount)[/quote]

You're right, and that is why I inserted that I'm not trying to minimize what you paid. This was just one part of my overall point.[/quote]
Which Kuppa were you on? Which doctor did you go to? I just came and want to start treatments I went to the Meuchedet clinic and they said they don't even do fertility treatments. My Hebrew is bad so I probably missed a lot of what the secretary was saying.[/quote]

I am sure that Meuhedet DOES fertility treatments, but I am on macabi and have been very blessed with good doctors and treatments for infertility. You can PM if you would like to find out more (or just ask here Smile

)[/quote]

Meuchedet absolutely does fertility treatments. In Jerusalem I believe the clinic is in the Beit Egged branch. The other branches may not have the information but any GYN or family doc should be able to give you the referral and point you in the right direction.

Happy Mom

Fri, Jul 19 2013, 11:37 am

Reading this thread hurt my heart. I know from personal experience exactly what the Ami article is referencing, and to hear others say how it's not any easier in the US are just wrong. To act as if low earners aren't living on the edge here in a way they don't in the US is denial.

In the US, you won't go hungry if you don't have money for food. Here you will. When we had to pay 800 shekels a month for specialty formula for our baby (medically necessary) on top of the other extra expenses and at the same time our income was drastically cut, where was it to come from? You cut down on what you give the other kids. We're very fortunate that a friend of my husband's realized that with all of the things that happened that it was probably affecting our finances and brings a box of vegetables most weeks.

Give me a break about charity organizations. I'm a very proud person who has budgeted carefully and been financially independent and responsible for a long time. When I saw our financial situation literally was affecting my ability to feed my family, I finally reached out for help to the local organization, something that hurt me a lot to do. BH we've always been able to help others. We got two bottles of oil, sugar and salt - one time.

When we depleted our savings, we finally asked revacha for help with the expense of formula, something I felt literally sick to my stomach about doing. No help yet - of course it's been two months but what's the rush? Maybe one day. You know what would have happened in the US? We would get this formula free with WIC.

Health insurance for (edited to clarify - children of) low earners in the US is covered by the government and less expensive than here. No copays, no medication costs, all the therapies and psychological stuff covered fully.

Someone said that only people living on the edge would be affected by the travel costs or therapies, etc. Well, some people live on the edge. And traveling for medical care (in our case to different cities on a regular basis) becomes a huge expense. What happens when a low or average wage is cut more than fifty percent because of hospitalizations? And it's at these times that generally extra expenses will be part of the situation. Do you know how fast your hard earned savings can be wiped out?

For low earners in Israel and the US, there's no question that in the US there's a safety net that will catch you. You'll get good medical coverage and have food to eat, maybe housing and energy assistance. Here? I really don't know what catches a person and I trust that Hashem won't make hitting rock bottom of my nisyonos. It's clear that it's only Hashem who will help because honestly, there doesn't seem to be anyone else.

Please don't act as if people aren't suffering and that it's a rare situation. If you don't know about it firsthand, BH - be grateful. But realize that plenty of people are struggling in a very real way, and if there are those taking advantage of tzedaka funds, they're the exception.

Last edited by Happy Mom on Sat, Jul 20 2013, 4:08 pm; edited 1 time in total

Liba

Fri, Jul 19 2013, 12:15 pm

Happy Mom, have you spoken to anyone at your kupat cholim? There is a cap on what you should be paying for formula of about 550nis a month. You may have to submit receipts and wait to get the money back. We needed to submit a doctor's letter of necessity and a nutritionist consult about quantities of formula per month, but all in all, you should be getting some of it back.

My son has been on 3,000nis a month formula on two kupat cholim. On Meuchedet I had to submit receipts and get the money back each quarter. On Leumit I used to have to do the same, but now they actually programmed the computer so after a certain point each month I just don't pay anything when I pick up his formula.

Fox

Fri, Jul 19 2013, 12:40 pm

DrMom wrote:

One can live modestly and live a good life here in E"Y. Basics like healthcare are not tied to your employment situation or to your specific job, so you don't have to be concerned about not having this basic cost covered. Daycare is much more affordable here. Food is pricey, but if you eat like an Israeli and not as an American, it is more affordable.

I don't know how this compares to living off welfare in the US. I don't think that's much of a financial plan in any case. One should plan to work to support oneself. Welfare is supposed to be a fallback if plan A fails.

This illustrates precisely how and why resentment and hatred develops.

In Israel, medical care is paid for (at least to one degree or another) by the government, which collects taxes from businesses and workers. People expect and accept that this is how basic medical care will be provided.

Yet having one's basic medical care provided by the government in the U.S. is considered "being on welfare" and is regarded pejoratively.

You can't have it both ways. Is government-financed medical care a legitimate use of a service to which one is entitled, or is it "welfare."

I don't have a particular opinion, but I am never amazed by the double-standards that exist -- and by how blatantly people pat themselves on the back for being "financially responsible" when, in fact, they are every bit as reliant on government services as someone receiving "welfare" -- yet somehow they think it's different if the service is not means-tested in their particular country or community.

JAWSCIENCE

Fri, Jul 19 2013, 2:29 pm

chanchy123 wrote:

JAWSCIENCE wrote:

As an aside I am finding the discussion of tuna prices very interesting. I typically buy it when it goes on sale in the drugstore (U.S.) Usually you can get it at 99 cents a can. however recently there was a run of tuna sales and one store had it at 89 cents. I was so excited I bought ten cans. If I didn't live in an apartment with limited space it would probably be more. Food is getting more expensive all around the world. A good sale is that much more enjoyable.

Back to the tuna, DH said he never pays as much as I did for tuna, oh well.

My DH says now we should never pay more than 89 cents for tuna. He's kind of joking but he is also now determined to find it for less. DH's and their need to be the one who found it for less Cool

chaiz

Fri, Jul 19 2013, 6:43 pm

[quote=
Health insurance for low earners in the US is covered by the government and less expensive than here. No copays, no medication costs, all the therapies and psychological stuff covered fully.
[/quote]

Sorry to pick on you, but reading things like this make my head hurt. I am really not sure where you get the idea that for low earners health insurance is covered by government. It really is not simple and I am talking from experience. Yes, there is medicaid, but it totally does not cover everything and there are more limits to what you can and cannot get. And there are many doctors who do not want to touch it; they are not being greedy but very practical when they do it. Medicare is government healthcare for seniors, and that is a much better program so doctors can make good money on it and therefor they are much more likely to take medicare. And I am really not sure where you get that psychological treatment is covered. This is one thing where it seems that Israel as a society gets better. Israel, from my understanding as a soon to be oleh, has a much better appreciation in theory for the whole person and treats "holistic" treatments with much more respect. I am talking from experience when I say that mental health is not covered. What I think bothers people here is the entitlement and spouting untrue statements, when one knows them not to be true. Can you please believe us when we say that Americans can have it very hard and it is not all peaches and cream?

Happy Mom

Sat, Jul 20 2013, 3:35 pm

Chaiz, I made aliyah less than two years ago so I do know what life in the US is like financially. I'm the last person to romanticize the financial challenges that Americans are facing. We lived on one mid/low income and were nonetheless much more financially comfortable in the US than here. And no, we didn't take entitlements in the US (unless you consider health insurance for children in that category) and we didn't come here with a hand out to anyone - we were returning citizens, got no sal klita, paid our own airfare, etc. We came because we wanted to be here and believed it was the best place to raise our family and even with everything never doubted that we made the right decision.

I'm sorry you feel I was spouting untrue statements that I know to be false. I've lived in the US for a long time and now in Israel for a couple of years so I do think I have a perspective that is of some value.

I'm sorry I was unclear - when referencing health insurance I was referring to medical assistance for children since it seemed most of the posts were referring to medical expenses with children; my kids did have health insurance through the state so I am very familiar with coverage. I unfortunately have a tremendous amount of experience here with medical issues, thanks to having three kids hospitalized for serious situations in this past year along with the need to visit a number of specialists and take one child for regular therapies. I can unequivocably state that the state coverage in the US covered much more than here. I'm comparing apples and apples, government health care for children to government health care for children. (I realize that health care for adults is an entirely different situation, and in this case the Israeli system is more advantageous for most people.)

My kupa has told me that psychologists aren't covered here; perhaps if we had the higher level of coverage there would be a a discounted rate but this is what I was told. (If that's not accurate I'd appreciate having that information since it would be good to know - I'm on Klalit.) Psychological services for children are fully covered with medical assistance.

As someone who has pursued alternative health treatments for many years, I haven't found the system here more receptive than the US. I pay privately for all of our alternative doctors. I'm very open to feedback as to how to find health care providers in Israel who are familiar or even respectful of an alternative health care approach (my experience so far has been that they are very much the exception), and would love for you to share your positive experiences with me once you get here.

I'll restate the point of my previous post is a way that hopefully won't offend anyone: of the medical expenses for our children that we had here, every single one would have been fully covered in the US. I wouldn't have had to travel more than thirty minutes at the very most to any of the specialists I would have needed. Early intervention services would have come to my home several times a week. The hospital would have been a five minute drive from our home. There would have been WIC to cover specialty formula and food stamps when our income dropped drastically. There would have been chesed organizations to help out people in our situation. Based on all of these factors, I don't think that the difficulties we were going through would have become a financial crisis in addition to everything else.

People struggle here, people struggle there. I don't think we have to have a competition about that or deny anyone else's experience.

Last edited by Happy Mom on Sat, Jul 20 2013, 3:49 pm; edited 1 time in total

chanchy123

Sat, Jul 20 2013, 3:37 pm

Tova wrote:

Happy Mom, thank you for posting and thank you for not making me feel like I am CRAZY when I read and am moved by an article about poverty in E"Y and I have to come on here to have posters LIVING THERE who tell me that 1) it's not so bad, they're managing fine, there are Israeli's who own yachts (even posting a picture of the boats at sea); and 2) it's not so great in the US.

Hashem should help everyone in need, in the most dignified way possible.

I don't know if this is what other people mean to say, but this is what I mean to say. It is very tough and hard to be poor in Israel and in the US, and basically anywhere in the world. Both countries have saftey nets that are very different and both countries rely on civil sosciety to provide some of this assistance. I don't think you should not be moved by an article about poverty in Israel, but OTOH you should not think that Israel is a terrible place to live and that there are many many many destitute people here, much more than in the US. That simply is not true. One of the factors are of course, that in Israel many of the truly poor families are frum Jews, while in the US, I'd guess most of the truly poor people are immigrants from South America or other countries, not necesserily among frum Jews or people you see and know of.
The bottom line is that most government in the world cannot provide all the needs of poor people, and I'm not entirely sure that they should, and that it is really awful to be in such a situation, and as frum Jews we should give tzedaka to help those in need.