ami article about poverty in israel

amother

Thu, Jul 18 2013, 7:01 pm

shalhevet wrote:

amother wrote:

I will be the voice of dissent here. I was a kallah who donated $1500 to Yad Eliezer for another wedding to be made on the day of my wedding, and after reading the Ami article I was fuming that I donated my hard-earned money. Let me tell you why:

I wouldn't worry if I were you. Yad Eliezer makes very simple weddings, and anyone who is trying to live it up a little doesn't want that kind of wedding. I can't believe people use them unless they genuinely need to. IMHO it is a very big mitzva.

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The U.S. 'safety net' does not apply to everyone - I work hard and pay taxes and try not to take money from the government if I don't have to. I'm very far from rich, or even comfortably paying my bills.

Health insurance is only for children and pregnant women, you have to be really poor for the whole family to be eligible. 150 shekel=$42. I pay approximately 8 times that for each my husband and myself.

It is pretty silly IMHO to compare prices in America and Israel. The real way to compare prices is in line with salaries. You need to calculate how long it takes an average wage earner to earn the amount needed for a particular item in each country. So maybe health insurance is cheaper, but clothes, many types of food etc. are much more expensive (even if they cost the same).

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Fertility treatments in Israel are practically free. I paid $14,000 - $16,000 to conceive my child, with some assistance from Bonei Olam.

Firstly most people do not need fertility treatments, so again, it's not a good example.
The difference is due to different mentalities - Israel considers having a child a basic right, not a luxury, and so it is considered a medical necessity.

What people also don't seem to grasp is how much copays cost in Israel.
Say you have two relatively minor things in the same family one summer. Let's say one child breaks a bone and another has recurring ear infections. You have to pay a relatively small copay for each of: orthopedic doctor, X-rays, physiotherapy, ENT, hospital outpatients. If this happens in June, you will have to pay them all again in July because it's a new quarter. You will have copays for all the prescriptions. You will have to take taxis or pay for gas to doctors/ hospitals. Probably one or both parents will have to take time off work.

If I tell you the sums involved, you will probably dismiss them - but they quickly add up. And for a family that was previously just scraping by, this can push them over the financial edge. And that's for something relatively minor - imagine, ch"v, much more serious health problems. And all this while the actual treatment is paid for by the government.

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I do receive WIC.

I am not eligible for housing assistance; I rent and am hoping that in a few years we will be able to save up for a house. Most Israelis that I know of receive apartments from their parents when they get married.

Rental prices in Israel are high. So high that even in a small city/ town they can be an entire low or medium salary. If someone doesn't own a home here they are practically doomed to a life of struggling. It is not like in the US or UK when you can save up yourself for a house. If you start renting, unless you are a corporate director or something you will spend so much on renting that you will not be able to save anything (unless you live in the absolute boonies where there are no jobs either). Most Israelis today receive an apartment with a mortgage - and that is probably still more than the rent you are paying (in real terms as a % of your salary).

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Tuition - I'm chassidish, it's not free, and I pay the discounted rate of approximately $300/month per child. How much do you pay again in Israel? Oh right, nothing.

Ha ha. I pay for my sons in cheder. I pay for my daughters in BY HS (a few thousand shekels a year). I pay for my son in yeshiva. And I pay an enormous sum for my dd in BY post-high school. It is only (almost) free for girls in BY elementary or all children in DL elementary. DL who want a good HS option also pay large sums.

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I could go on and on. The interviewee in the article said that there is so much poverty in Israel because many of the programs are tied into employment. I have news for you: they're not giving out money for free in the U.S. either. If we have money it's because we work hard to earn it. Actually, Israel is the socialist country where so much is given for free.

Could you give me an example, please? I would like to get these freebies too.

I don't want to nitpick. I was giving examples of daily life that people think are so much easier in the U.S. Every family has individual expenses. My point is that it is wrong for Israelis to expect Americans to support them when we ourselves are struggling, and to complain about poverty when there are so many things they get from the government that we don't. Stop complaining and begging and don't tell us that we have a 'safety net' from the government. Our safety net is called hard work, and yes, maybe more job opportunities, but nothing is free.

One point that you said stuck with me. You say that in Israel infertility is covered because of a different mentality. It doesn't matter what the philosophy is; fact is that it's an exorbitant cost that many Israelis get practically for free and we don't. In the same breath you complained about co-pays. The reason I went for treatments in the first place is because my child was born with a genetic disease. You want to complain about co-pays? Even with state funded healthcare my child visits specialists all the time who are not covered by insurance. One consultation costs approximately $300. Most of his specialty medications are also not covered, enter the copays. His medical equipment is not covered; it costs $4,000. Should I continue? I'm not complaining; I'm happy to be an American, and to live in a country that allows me the opportunity to work and make my own money.
Any Israeli who complains that the government doesn't give them enough and that life is too expensive should be ashamed of themselves.

Tamiri

Fri, Jul 19 2013, 1:23 am

I agree with the poster who wrote it's no longer "politically correct" for Israelis to be shnorring in the U.S. Things flipped in the beginning of the 2000's when things became difficult in the U.S. and in Israel things were booming. It's time to get the shnorrers to realize: either you work in your home country and make enough money for what you want, or you do without. The Americaners are struggling and no longer have oodles of disposable income to share. It's not tzedaka when someone who DOES NOT WORK comes begging at your door step. Wait.... what am I saying? They DO work! At SHNORRING!!!!

I'm able to write this because I have lived on both sides. I saw life in the U.S. in the glorious 80s and 90s (which were less glorious than the 60s, of course - I missed the 70s) and I saw the downward spiral starting 2001. I was always shocked, when we visited Israel, at how well people were doing in terms of ability to take trips, eat out, go to shows (MO crowd) and not much has changed in this arena. If the MOs can do it, so can everyone else but it takes the desire to get out of a rut, educate yourself, work hard and SAVE! And to stop expecting home ownership which is really out of most people's budgets, no matter how hard they work. Unless they have family money.

Tablepoetry

Fri, Jul 19 2013, 2:03 am

just skimmed here.
Co-pays? In Israel? Are we talking about the money you pay to see a specialist? You only pay once in three months. And then you can see that specialist as often as you want for those three months. And....it's something like 22 NIS, I think!!! You really really have to be under the poverty level for that to bother you, even if you have 3 kids going to three different specialists.

There are lots of people here struggling with poverty, but much of it is sectorial. Charedim are one of the poorest sectors in Israel (low income, lots of kids), so anyone who is mainly in contact with them will get a skewed idea of what's going on here.

As for home ownership....most Israelis do NOT get an entire apartment from their parents!! Maybe among certain charedim (again, some people here seem to be in contact mainly with charedi Israelis, and therefore have a skewed version of reality). Most Israelis DO get help with the downpayment from their parents, not necessarily right after marriage but maybe a bit later, or they get the entire downpayment. So yes, that helps, and that is probably the reason why so many Israelis manage to buy.

You can still buy in Israel if you move to a low cost city/area. We did that a few times, and lo and behold, the area developed afterwards. You just need to be ready to rough it out a little.

chanchy123

Fri, Jul 19 2013, 2:09 am

Tablepoetry wrote:

Liking this is not enough.

etky

Fri, Jul 19 2013, 3:07 am

chanchy123 wrote:

Tablepoetry wrote:

Liking this is not enough.

I second that. There seems to be a certain degree of confusion on this thread in the respect that haredi lifestyle and economic priorities are wrongly being perceived as normative for Israeli society as a whole.
I agree with posters who contend that health care overall is cheaper here and probably more accessible than in the US. I often marvel at what I and my family have had access to here over the years for ridiculously minimal cost and hassle: from fertility treatments through different types of surgeries and MRI's, countless OT and speech therapy sessions for the kids, easy and practically cost free access to top specialists, all for which I had to pay symbolic fees.
Same goes for tuition, at least regarding what MO pay for comparable schooling in the US. Elementary school is practically free and while high school does cost real money, it is not nearly as much as what people in the US pay in both relative and absolute terms. In my area I know many, many olim for whom this was the number one driving force of their aliya.
I agree with Tamiri that housing is the juggernaut here. If there is no family help for a down payment it is very difficult to get your foot in the door. You can do what Table suggested but even then you need a sizable chunk of cash, you have to be willing to live in areas that may be far from family and employment and there is still an element of luck involved, regarding the expected appreciation of housing prices in that area. And rents are exorbitant in most areas.
I also very much agree with Tamiri and others regarding the mental adjustment one has to make when moving here regarding shopping as a pastime and scaling down on things that are not real necessities. Goods of all sorts are more expensive here. Taking tuna as an example (and btw the price has gone up tremendously in just the past 2 weeks and there have been articles in the press specifically about the cost of tuna!) - if a can costs about the same here and in the States (and we're not talking about the fact that what we get here is the darker, cheaper tuna flakes) it is still more affordable for the person in the States who earns much more. Same goes for all other consumer goods and utilities too.
To the amother who lambasts Israelis who complain about the govt. and cost of living - I think you are being overly harsh. There is an entire swathe of middle class, working and professional people in this country who pay very high taxes and spend years in (practically unpaid) military service of their country who are having a hard time making ends meet because of the structural problems in the Israeli economy, with housing and taxation as prominent issues. This was what informed the "cottage cheese protests' of two summers ago. The cost of living in relation to salaries is very high here despite health care and tuition being cheaper and more available than in the US. Why do people who pay taxes and do all that is required of citizens not have the right to protest this and demand structural reform of the economy to alleviate the burden on the working middle class? No one is asking for hand outs and there is certainly nothing to be ashamed of in this demand.

Tamiri

Fri, Jul 19 2013, 3:23 am

If you read Ami, you get an Ami picture. I don't know who reads it but since there are believers here, I guess Ami are doing a good job!
What I don't read about here on Imamother is a synopsis of Ami articles with suggestions for improving the situation. All I read about are (granted, this is third hand here on Imamother) whines. I don't read Ami suggesting that couples marry LATER, after having completed an EDUCATION and learning how to navigate themselves financially as a family. I don't read about having a small family or holding off with having babies until the couple is slightly established in their professions.
I just read slander about EY and the sad truth is that what they write has absolutely no bearing on many many people here in the Land. Those living in gorgeous homes/apartments with at least one or two cars parked under the building or next to the house. Those hundreds of thousands going abroad for a few days or more each year. Those filling the many many fine restaurants/theaters/hotels. Why don't they write that it's insane that couples pay 700 nis (close to TWO HUNDRED DOLLARS!!!) and more PER NIGHT (including breakfast) at a hotel, and the hotels are FULL. Why don't we read those articles in Ami? Heck, even those "poor" people living in $250k apartments (very lowball value of a regular apartment in a city) that they outright OWN: I'm supposed to feel sorry for them??????
Because, it's geared to a specific public who love to tsk and read about how hard it is in Israel. I don't get it, but there you have it.

shalhevet

Fri, Jul 19 2013, 3:33 am

Tablepoetry wrote:

TP, I specifically wrote about a family with two children and not just one specialist each. If you have to pay NIS 22 for an orthopedist, an ENT, physiotherapy, X-rays, and another couple that is 150 shekels. Add copays for prescription drugs. Add taxis/ gas + parking to hospitals and doctors. Add loss of earnings. And, yes, that can push a family over the edge. And that's for regular childhood illnesses/ accidents. Not anything serious.

And if your child goes to hitpatchut hayeled for 2-3 different treatments each week? each at 20-something shekel? And you have 2 children who each need such help?

I think the issue here is that people are comparing with America. So of course what's 500 shekels when in America it would have been 2000 dollars or whatever? But Israelis (or Europeans, for that matter, used to socialized medicine) don't compare with America. They compare with the dwindling shekels in their purse. Or what things used to cost.

RachelEve14

Fri, Jul 19 2013, 3:45 am

shalhevet wrote:

I totally agree. I had one child seeing a specialist, and when she ran out of sessions the specialist said she thought the child would benefit from 10 more sessions, but were we okay with that. Each session was "only" 42 NIS, but that was 420 NIS in 10 weeks. Quite a chunk.

Also not everything is 22 NIS. When we got the papers for ds's cardiology appointment, it says to make sure to bring 200 NIS to pay. We called since we hadn't remembered paying before. It turns out since our kupah works with the hospital we don't pay (anything, B"H), but any other kupah we would either have to go to a kupah cardiologist, or pay 200 NIS every visit (which for ds B"H should now be only once a year, but for some heart kids can be every other week, and was much more frequent right after his surgery).

So yes, B"H overall I am really happy with the quality of care and what we are (mostly not) paying for it. But I do agree things can add up quickly and push a family over the edge.

chanchy123

Fri, Jul 19 2013, 4:01 am

Tova wrote:

Tamiri, picture this in size 40 font:

THE AMI ARTICLE WAS ABOUT PEOPLE WHO ARE, NEBUCH, LO ALEINU, POOR!
NOT ABOUT THE WAY THE MAJORITY OF ISRAELIS LIVE.
BUT THE SMALL MINORITY OF PEOPLE WHO WHEN THEY OPEN THEIR REFRIDGERATOR ARE NOT LIKE MY KIDS WHO SAY, "THERE'S NOTHING TO EAT" WHEN THEY REALLY MEAN THAT THERE IS NOTHING THERE THAT THEY WANT TO EAT, BUT RATHER, THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO EAT.

BH I'm not poor, but I wonder if it's true, that the real poor are better off in the US. I'd guess it's probably the same with other classes, they are better off in some aspects, and worse off than others.
There is subsidized housing here (Amidar and Amigur) I'm not sure how you qualify and they are generally in not so amazing neighborhood.
We don't have food stamps, we have bituach leumi/avtachat hachnasa/hashlamat hachnasa - which are social security programs generated for low earners or unemployed.
We have child allowance, not so much but it adds up.
subsidized daycare.
Great quality healthcare at a subsidized rate.
I'm sure there are more programs that I'm not aware of, and yes there is plenty of aid coming from private organizations. Israelis give charity generously as well, it's part of our culture Twisted Evil

.

I don't think it's fun being poor anywhere, I'm not convinced it's that easier in the US than in Israel.
But even if it is easier to be poor in the US, that doesn't change the kedusha and value of living in EY over the just living in the US. Kedusha, does not have a monetary value.

Tova

Fri, Jul 19 2013, 4:06 am

chanchy123 wrote:

Tova wrote:

chanchy, none of that has anything to do with the article.

The article was about a tzeddakah organization started to help Israeli's POOR and why it was started. So you don't like their arguments about how US poor are better off then Israel poor? Who cares. I don't know if it's true either and G-d shouldn't test me to find out. It was obviously a human interest story with an intention to make people aware of this situation so people (mostly US readers) WILL DONATE.

I know it's 4 a.m. here (I'm having terrible insomnia) but I can't help but being surprised at all these Israeli's who are so eager to put down an article they've never even read I'm gathering, saying that it's not better in the US, Israeli's are doing fine and still living it up, etc.

WHAT'S YOUR INTENTION? THAT PEOPLE SHOULD HARDEN THEIR HEARTS AND NOT GIVE TO THIS TZEDDAKAH? Again, I'm really surprised. I thought we were more compassionate than that.

Oh, I know. I'll tell Israel's poor or else the founders of the organization that it's not so bad in Israel...after all you have the kedusha that we don't have here in the US.

chanchy123

Fri, Jul 19 2013, 4:15 am

Tova wrote:

chanchy123 wrote:

Tova wrote:

I think that if anyone had actually said what the article was about, the debate would have been very different. If that's what the article was about - great, yes, there are very poor people here, and if you are able to help them financially, regardless of where you live.

Honestly, I think most people here had no idea this is what the article was about, none of us actually read it, so the thread spiraled into something entirely different.
And go to sleep!