sending to schools that contradict with your beliefs

amother

Sun, Sep 29 2013, 6:28 am

While in Shul yesterday I overheard some women talking about potential schools for their kids.

The one asking recently made aliyah, and looked like your typical flatbush lady. too short, too tight pencil skirt, long - very long- beautiful wig, flashy glasses and earrings, no socks (not generalizing, just from my view of those I've seen among these type of circles.) and closed shoes. She was talking about a local school, which I would file it under american yeshiva/chareidi, rules with internet, dress code (for the parents and children.) She was saying how she will change her way of dress, and wear a different wig to go pick up her kid if need be, and then kept saying how crazy it is.

this is not the first ive seen/heard about a more "modern" type person trying to fit in and send their kid to an establishment that contradicts with their way of life.

why is it that people send their children to schools that the kids learn one thing in school and see another at home - on two different extremes?

there is a fine line and a happy medium usually. most dont agree with the chareidi mentality obviously, or why arent they following it themselves?

why would a woman put herself into that position that she needs to change her dress and public image just for schooling when it goes against everything she believes is how it should be done?

why not send your child to a school that is more similar to your beliefs, that way your child wont be so confused and say "my teacher said im gonna go to hell if I dont wear socks, and my mom isnt," and then start to disregard the authority in schools because it cant make sense that all they see and love is doing things that would be so wrong.

just thinking aloud... and curious. anyone have any insight?

cinnamon

Sun, Sep 29 2013, 7:23 am

You can never find a school that matches your way of life exactly.
You send to the closest thing available.
I chose to send my kids to a school that is more to the right then my lifestyle because why shouldn't they have a better starting point then I do?
I struggle with wearing skirts that are long enough to cover my knees at all times because my friends and family don't all do it but if all of my daughter's friends will wear long enough skirts it will be a given for her and she will struggle with something else that isn't even on my radar (yet...)
If I send my son to a more modern cheider it might be easier for me (I would be able to go pick him up with denim for example) but his struggle will be computer games vs. learnning. In the more chareidi cheider I send him to his struggle will be reading the latest 'chareidi' comic book vs. learnning and that is a much easier battle. And much less harmfull if he does decide to read the compics instead of learn.

Besides, I am not done yet either and my kid's more chareidi schools are a constant reminder of where I should be heading.

Shana_H

Sun, Sep 29 2013, 7:31 am

cinnamon wrote:

I'd like to like your post twice, but I can only hit the like button once, lol,

Tablepoetry

Sun, Sep 29 2013, 7:43 am

cinnamon wrote:

Cinnamon, you seem to be talking about something else. Apparently the schools you send to fit your values very well, you just find it difficult to live that way. But they represent what you aspire to.

But for many, more RW or more charedi schools do not represent their ideal values or what they aspire to, and then they have a conflict - to send to the stricter school or to the more lenient one, since neither are what they believe in.

cinnamon

Sun, Sep 29 2013, 7:56 am

Tablepoetry wrote:

cinnamon wrote:

They don't fit my values in everything. I strongly disagree with them in their atitude towards men working for a living, I very strongly dissagree with their feelings towards internet but like I said it is impossible to find a school you agree with 100% and so you send to the best one you can find and you take the bad with the good.
You swallow hard and hold your tounge while your kids are still to young to see there is more then black and white and when they are a little older you gently introduce the ideas you think are more correct.

I simply explained why I think you should send to the more RW schools even though they are far from a perfect match.

Tablepoetry

Sun, Sep 29 2013, 8:05 am

cinnamon wrote:

I simply explained why I think you should send to the more RW schools even though they are far from a perfect match.

I actually think the exact opposite. I speak as someone who's sent both to more RW schools and to the other side of the spectrum. And in between.

The RW schools promoted ideas I was very uncomfortable with, especially towards women. (They also had other problems not necessarily connected to the fact they were RW; they were smaller and not as professional or academic as the other schools I sent to).

There are other implications of sending to a more RW school. Socially, it puts your kids and you in a conundrum. What do you do about friends coming home from school? Do you continue to 'act' the part? When schoolmates visit, do you ban all your other kids from watching tv/playing on the computer/playing sports/whatever it is that you do but the school doesn't? Do you have to dress differently when schoolmates come over?
My kids had friends over ALL the time, and I'm not willing to put on a mask every afternoon.

Also, the worst IMO is when the kids come home believing certain chumrot are MUSTS, and then they start looking down at you for not following them.

Not so simple.

DrMom

Sun, Sep 29 2013, 8:43 am

People pick schools for all different reasons:
- sometimes there are better academics at a school which doesn't happen to match your hashkafa,
- worries about being the most strict family in a more laid-back school and exposing children to more "lax" standards
- thinking that sending to a stricter place will shore up against potential OTD tendencies
- etc.

I agree that it can be a source of conflict, but parents are often weighing several factors in their choice.

amother wrote:

The one asking recently made aliyah, and looked like your typical flatbush lady. too short, too tight pencil skirt, long - very long- beautiful wig, flashy glasses and earrings, no socks (not generalizing, just from my view of those I've seen among these type of circles.) and closed shoes.

Was this really necessary?

amother

Sun, Sep 29 2013, 10:38 am

I'm the OP. thank ou for all the replies. to the last person who responded,I think it was dr. mom im sorry for sounding condescending.

I myself am MO or somewhere along that line and to me its fine. but it seemed for the person she made herself to be, that her skirt was too short and too tight.

you may see me yourself and look at me in my flip flops and too short denim skirt and long earrings and say how can I be so judgmental, but thats why I remained anonymous, because I was not pointing fingers or looking down or bashing. I just dont understand why someone would go through all that trouble of looking like that when people are not watching so to speak, and put on a show for schools that youll turn your nose up to the rules regardless.

I had a girl in high school like this who is like this until today.
was always the good frummy looking girl. skirts always covered by few inches, knee socks, no swearing, good attitude - the works. she was sleeping with guys and stayed off the staffs radar and faked it through high school.

maybe I have an aversion to fakers, its possible. you either do it or you dont.
but why go through the trouble, and just send to a more your speed school so that they dont come home and say MOM, WHY ISNT YOUR HAIR COVERED??? dont you know that if the walls of your house will see your hair, you will have BAD CHILDREN!
(believe me- this happens)

m in Israel

Sun, Sep 29 2013, 10:46 am

As was already said, I think a big part of this is that there are many factors in choosing a school for your child, and nothing is perfect. If I understand your OP, this women clearly does NOT agree with the standards of the school (she is saying they are "crazy"), so yes, it is a problem. But maybe this school has the Chevra of kids that she thinks will be best for her kids socially. Maybe she heard the teachers are really fantastic. Maybe they provide some sort of special services that one of her kids needs. You cannot know what factors this woman is weighing that made her decide it was worth sending to this school even if she must change certain things about her lifestyle, or at least externally act that way.

I wouldn't be so quick to call this woman a "faker". It is possible this is someone who is willing to make changes in her life for the sake of putting her kids in the most appropriate school, even if she doesn't believe in the underlying reasons for them.

OOTforlife

Sun, Sep 29 2013, 10:51 am

Ruchel wrote:

Because not everyone is lucky to live with a dozen of schools around.

Many consider themselves lucky if there is one, and it's not too bad.

Some are so bad the rabbanim are saying better to public school than turn them off yiddishkeit for life, too. Charedi rabbis too.

I don't know about other countries, but in US OOT communities where there is only one school, admission requirements like the OP describes are usually not an issue. Even if the school is run by more RW types, there are a number of students whose mothers make no pretense of full time hair covering and/or openly wear pants. Often there are families who aren't even shomer Shabbos. The type of dilemma the OP describes where you have to lie about your home practices to be admitted exists mostly in communities with multiple schools. As far as I've seen and heard.

Ruchel

Sun, Sep 29 2013, 10:58 am

Mostly it is the same in Europe, a "community school" accepting "all halachic Jews", but not always.

I can think of a few very charedi (and some less shtark but still "not for all") schools "in the middle of nowhere", leaving all other kids on the side...

Community schools come with their own problem, where, to quote my dh's cousin who lives near one, "a girl can be teased for always being in skirt". I've taught in a supposedly "good, serious", CS and while it was not as bad, I also felt hostility towards JPF+ kids who were about 10% of the crowd... this could seriously make a mom consider going to "the charedi school" even if it means lying about tights and tv.

The very charedi BY I taught in a couple years ago has a "no internet except for work and no movies" policy. As told by many parents, alumni and teachers (!) "everyone cheats, some even have a tv in their room". Which isn't what I want to teach to my own kids. But if one day it's that or a community school... my choice will be very easy...

catonmylap

Sun, Sep 29 2013, 11:10 am

I think lots of North American olim are confused...

they base their haskafa way too much on how they dress and way too little on what they believe --- if they wear a sheitel and their husband wears a black hat -- they think they must be haredi and send to Haredi schools (even if they are wearing a 'too tight' skirt, etc....it's all about the sheitel).... whereas their believes may be way more in line with MO/DL.

How many posts on here were like --- I wear x, my husband wears y, what community would be good for us?

imaima

Sun, Sep 29 2013, 2:28 pm

amother wrote:

It's not just about skirts. maybe the mother struggles with tzniyus herself, but they have no tv and would like a more kodesh and less chol etc., so they match the school in everything but tzniyus. Why would they send to a more modern school for that alone??