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At what age do you have your kids stop touching and how?
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Cookies n Cream




 
 
 


Post  Mon, Dec 09 2013, 1:19 pm
amother wrote:
What if my 9 yo dd sits on her 16 yo brother lap or touches him? Is it -allowed ?. I told her not to sit on his lap but I let them touch each other.


Shomer Negiah is not applicable between siblings.
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Isramom8




 
 
 


Post  Mon, Dec 09 2013, 1:26 pm
Marina, maybe halacha does acknowledge that young girls can naturally draw a man's eye. Maybe in other generations people didn't have hangups about this. Babies under 3, in contrast, don't resemble girls, just baby blobs.

Maybe a young girl can, like, make a man think of an older girl?

Nature is not sick in and of itself. We just have to deal with it constructively.
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marina




 
 
 


Post  Mon, Dec 09 2013, 1:28 pm
MaBelleVie wrote:
marina wrote:
No offense meant by this post OP.

I don't understand, in all of our discussions on this, how these rules don't normalize pedophelia.

In other words, we don't have a rule that says 4 year old boys can't sit on a non-relative's lap. We don't have that rule because being attracted to a 4 year old boy is not normal and halacha is made for normal people.

But a 3 year old girl has to be tznius and can't be alone with, or touch, any males? Doesn't that mean it's normal to be attracted to 3 year old girls?

If it was all about protection, the 4 year old boy would also be protected.


My guess is that a three year old girl is a lot more likely to be victimized by a man than a four year old boy by a woman. No? If not today, then at the time these laws were established.

(Do normal people rape and murder?)


There's an issur against murder, but there's no prohibition against being alone with a preschool girl, lest you come to murder her. There is a prohibition against being alone with her lest you come to have relations with her, though.


About protection- it's not about that. Because then the 4 year old boy would also be not allowed to be alone with his creepy uncle.

Also, the hilchos yichud are very clear that they are there to prevent untoward conduct and not to protect anyone.


Last edited by marina on Mon, Dec 09 2013, 1:31 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Isramom8




 
 
 


Post  Mon, Dec 09 2013, 1:30 pm
Even if both sibs are halachic adults they are technically allowed to touch (although frequently is not recommended), and they are permitted to live in yichud for 30 days.
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marina




 
 
 


Post  Mon, Dec 09 2013, 1:39 pm
Isramom8 wrote:
Marina, maybe halacha does acknowledge that young girls can naturally draw a man's eye. Maybe in other generations people didn't have hangups about this. Babies under 3, in contrast, don't resemble girls, just baby blobs.

Maybe a young girl can, like, make a man think of an older girl?

Nature is not sick in and of itself. We just have to deal with it constructively.



Mmmmm... no. If your nature is that a 3 year old is drawing your eye, you need therapy, jail, or both. Or a 7 year old. Or a ten year old.

Maybe a tree can make a man think of a young girl and then the young girl can, like, make the man think of an older girl?
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Isramom8




 
 
 


Post  Mon, Dec 09 2013, 1:44 pm
Maybe. I trust the halacha to set appropriate boundaries. Far be it for me to determine them.
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Shana_H




 
 
 


Post  Mon, Dec 09 2013, 1:52 pm
Dear SplitPea, unfortunately thus far I've made many an enemy where a friend once stood, by saying/doing something that someone didn't like and you know what, I DON'T CARE! If I feel strongly enough about something, I'll just come out with it, no one need understand why I do or say, what I do or say, coz after all is said and done Only G-d Shall Judge Me! If you hold three, then that's what it is!
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happybeingamom




 
 
 


Post  Mon, Dec 09 2013, 1:52 pm
marina wrote:
Isramom8 wrote:
Marina, maybe halacha does acknowledge that young girls can naturally draw a man's eye. Maybe in other generations people didn't have hangups about this. Babies under 3, in contrast, don't resemble girls, just baby blobs.

Maybe a young girl can, like, make a man think of an older girl?

Nature is not sick in and of itself. We just have to deal with it constructively.



Mmmmm... no. If your nature is that a 3 year old is drawing your eye, you need therapy, jail, or both. Or a 7 year old. Or a ten year old.

Maybe a tree can make a man think of a young girl and then the young girl can, like, make the man think of an older girl?


Most people aren't attracted to the very old and we still have these laws.
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Barbara




 
 
 


Post  Mon, Dec 09 2013, 1:54 pm
happybeingamom wrote:
marina wrote:
Isramom8 wrote:
Marina, maybe halacha does acknowledge that young girls can naturally draw a man's eye. Maybe in other generations people didn't have hangups about this. Babies under 3, in contrast, don't resemble girls, just baby blobs.

Maybe a young girl can, like, make a man think of an older girl?

Nature is not sick in and of itself. We just have to deal with it constructively.



Mmmmm... no. If your nature is that a 3 year old is drawing your eye, you need therapy, jail, or both. Or a 7 year old. Or a ten year old.

Maybe a tree can make a man think of a young girl and then the young girl can, like, make the man think of an older girl?


Most people aren't attracted to the very old and we still have these laws.


Yah, well, that would be kind of mean. No, Handsome 30th Year Old Shlomo. You may not touch or be alone with Women. Or Little Girls. What about Fruma, you say? Yeah, who'd want that old bag. Go ahead.
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wispalover




 
 
 


Post  Mon, Dec 09 2013, 2:03 pm
happybeingamom wrote:
marina wrote:
Isramom8 wrote:
Marina, maybe halacha does acknowledge that young girls can naturally draw a man's eye. Maybe in other generations people didn't have hangups about this. Babies under 3, in contrast, don't resemble girls, just baby blobs.

Maybe a young girl can, like, make a man think of an older girl?

Nature is not sick in and of itself. We just have to deal with it constructively.



Mmmmm... no. If your nature is that a 3 year old is drawing your eye, you need therapy, jail, or both. Or a 7 year old. Or a ten year old.

Maybe a tree can make a man think of a young girl and then the young girl can, like, make the man think of an older girl?


Most people aren't attracted to the very old and we still have these laws.


If this thread is anything to go by, there are apparently some mentally sick (but halachically accepted) individuals* in this world who may be attracted to anything with a v@gina. Old, young and everything in between. Therefore, halacha needs to cover all the tastes of these individuals as well.

*ETA and practices
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amother






Post  Mon, Dec 09 2013, 2:24 pm
OP

In a practical sense a three year old would not be able to comprehend the laws of negiah and therefore would not be able to keep it. Since they are below the age of Bas Mitzvah I don't see why there is a halachik issue.

I was told and I do not have the source since young girls have not have their periods so one can be makel about negiah.

I have a number of brothers, cousins and uncles and based on the way they act in my experience men have very little interest in playing with children that are not their own (of course they talk with them but it is just a few minute exchange). It just never came up as an issue because they don't hang out with the kids that much.
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Shana_H




 
 
 


Post  Mon, Dec 09 2013, 2:33 pm
amother wrote:
OP

In a practical sense a three year old would not be able to comprehend the laws of negiah and therefore would not be able to keep it. Since they are below the age of Bas Mitzvah I don't see why there is a halachik issue.

I was told and I do not have the source since young girls have not have their periods so one can be makel about negiah.

I have a number of brothers, cousins and uncles and based on the way they act in my experience men have very little interest in playing with children that are not their own (of course they talk with them but it is just a few minute exchange). It just never came up as an issue because they don't hang out with the kids that much.


So by the same token, a child of three doesn't understand, and therefore doesn't have to keep, the laws of Kashrut or Shabbos! Parden???!!!!, But our children still keep these laws coz we guide and direct our children to do what's right.
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gold21




 
 
 


Post  Mon, Dec 09 2013, 2:33 pm
marina wrote:
Isramom8 wrote:
Marina, maybe halacha does acknowledge that young girls can naturally draw a man's eye. Maybe in other generations people didn't have hangups about this. Babies under 3, in contrast, don't resemble girls, just baby blobs.

Maybe a young girl can, like, make a man think of an older girl?

Nature is not sick in and of itself. We just have to deal with it constructively.



Mmmmm... no. If your nature is that a 3 year old is drawing your eye, you need therapy, jail, or both. Or a 7 year old. Or a ten year old.

Maybe a tree can make a man think of a young girl and then the young girl can, like, make the man think of an older girl?


True. Anybody who finds a 3-year old girl makes him think s-xual thoughts needs to get help ASAP.

I'm a touchy-feely kind of person. I would give a kiss and hug when appropriate (like for a boo-boo) to my friends kids, and I would do so with a 3 year old boy too. I would say somewhere about age 6 is where I would feel odd giving a kiss and hug to a kid that's not my own- boy or girl. Not for s-xual reasons of course LOL, but because they're too old for that kind of thing.

3 year olds are so little. I would think it's cute if my teenage brother wanted my daughter to sit on his lap when she's a bit older.

My sister touched my husband until she turned 12. Its not like she was sitting on his lap when she was 11 (she sat on his lap when she was 6 and 7 tho). But she would tap him on the shoulder or whatever, until she was bas mitzvah. I think the fact that "shomer negeiah- thou shalt not touch" wasn't shoved in her face made her feel closer to my husband.... My sis is now just newly 15 and still a cute petite little thing and barely developed, but she started keeping the laws of Negeiah at 12 as per Halacha.


Last edited by gold21 on Mon, Dec 09 2013, 2:54 pm; edited 1 time in total
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gold21




 
 
 


Post  Mon, Dec 09 2013, 2:52 pm
Shana_H wrote:
amother wrote:
OP

In a practical sense a three year old would not be able to comprehend the laws of negiah and therefore would not be able to keep it. Since they are below the age of Bas Mitzvah I don't see why there is a halachik issue.

I was told and I do not have the source since young girls have not have their periods so one can be makel about negiah.

I have a number of brothers, cousins and uncles and based on the way they act in my experience men have very little interest in playing with children that are not their own (of course they talk with them but it is just a few minute exchange). It just never came up as an issue because they don't hang out with the kids that much.


So by the same token, a child of three doesn't understand, and therefore doesn't have to keep, the laws of Kashrut or Shabbos! Parden???!!!!, But our children still keep these laws coz we guide and direct our children to do what's right.


I don't require my 3 year olds to wait between meat and milk, or to keep the laws of muktzah if they just don't get it. They'll understand it in time- I don't push these things.
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amother






Post  Mon, Dec 09 2013, 4:46 pm
I haven't read this entire thread, but when I was younger (think as young as 6-7) the neighbors and I would 'play doctor' (I let you use your imagination bec I WILL NOT explain). It was boys and girls but only my age and a year younger. We girls would play the game even if there were no boys around. No one explained to us that there is such a thing as good or bad touching or that touching could be not tznius. We knew that we weren't supposed to play with boys but no one explained why. When my kids are little I will definitely let them play with the opposite gender, but I will explain to them about tzanua and that anything that you wouldn't show in the swimming pool cannot be seen or touched by your friends.
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Ima2NYM_LTR




 
 
 


Post  Mon, Dec 09 2013, 6:54 pm
I am the Opers friend with the 9 year old who visisted over the weekend. We are more modern than she is and never thought of the issue. But she came to me respectfully and asked me to speak with my son. I did.

Bottom line is that it was her request and her daughter.

At every age kids need to learn boundries, especially 9 year olds. She specified that she wasnt asking that my 9 year old to push her 3 year old away if she came over, just that he shoudnt initiate (which isnt a bad idea anyways because her daughter is tiny and my son likes to be rough and tumble sometimes). She was respectful about it and never put it in a s-xual context. I was never offended, neither was my husband or son.

She did nothing wrong by asking me
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SplitPea




 
 
 


Post  Mon, Dec 09 2013, 7:26 pm
Dh spoke to our rav again for guidance on this issue. Our rav informed us he is actually writing a Sefer on the topic it's such a major thing. (For reference we follow a mainstream Sephardi rav who was a talkies of chacham Ovadia ztzl

He informed me (yet again that its 3 for a girl 9 for a boy. That an adult man (over 13) should not be touching a 3 year old girl. (In cases of her felling etc an adult man would touch an adult woman for that reason so even moreso for a child)

He also stressed that YES he holds a 3 year old girl should not touch or have yichud with a 9 year old boy. We asked for chizzuk and practical advice on doing this. He said not to tell them "don't touch" because this can be awkward and that's the parents job of chinuch. He said we should 100% percent yichud and try and keep them out of situations where it might be an issue. Redirecting etc instead of telling them no etc.

He says the SA says 3&9 Smile

So I guess even thugh we are in the minority we know we are not misunderstanding our rav. My husband and I look forward to reading the Sefer our rav is writing on this topic.
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MaBelleVie




 
 
 


Post  Mon, Dec 09 2013, 7:35 pm
The SA says boy 13 girl 3, boy 9 girl 12. Just to clarify.
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SplitPea




 
 
 


Post  Mon, Dec 09 2013, 7:39 pm
MaBelleVie wrote:
The SA says boy 13 girl 3, boy 9 girl 12. Just to clarify.


Would you mind quoting that Smile what I have here says 9& 3 with no mention of 13 and 12. Smile
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amother






Post  Mon, Dec 09 2013, 8:59 pm
marina wrote:
There's an issur against murder, but there's no prohibition against being alone with a preschool girl, lest you come to murder her. There is a prohibition against being alone with her lest you come to have relations with her, though.


About protection- it's not about that. Because then the 4 year old boy would also be not allowed to be alone with his creepy uncle.

Also, the hilchos yichud are very clear that they are there to prevent untoward conduct and not to protect anyone.

The difference between protecting against murder and protecting against inappropriate s-xual desires is that s-x is a part of typical adult life. It is needed for marriage. In order to cause husbands to be attracted to their wives, Hashem created them with a strong s-xual desire. This can be misused if directed at anyone other than his wife. But normal people do not have a strong desire to murder people. Murdering is not normal or healthy for anyone ever.

Since people have this s-x drive, they also have Hilchos Yichud to help them use it appropriately.
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